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Old 04-21-2006, 10:12 AM   #1
Charles Steven Ossenheimer
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i used train by doing the classic weight lifting exercises (bench, shoulder press, curls etc) and i know they used to drill in your head that a protein shake before and after are the best pre/post workout meals...Since i've been doing crossfit, im not really sure what i should be intaking before and after the workouts..their so brutal then when i digest a shake before, i can usually feel it coming up during the workout.(or it could be pukie just talking to me).

But for you more expierenced memebers out there, what have you guys found that works the best for pre-post workout meals?? shakes or whole food?
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:47 AM   #2
Greg Battaglia
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I personally don't eat anything pre-workout. This helps to prime the "fight or flight" hormones and increase the neuro-endocrine response. I also believe that fasting before a work out allows for healthy gene expression. I usually wait about 1/2 to an hour after a workout to eat in order to get the full benefit of the elevated growth hormone (ala art d.). Personally, I say leave the pre/post workout crap to the bodybuilders. It might work if you want to look like a bloated mammoth, but for elite health and performance I just don't think bodybuiling methods will cut it.
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:10 PM   #3
Ross Hunt
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Greg,

No offense, but do you tell if your neuro-endocrine response is activated, or if your flight or fight hormones are elevated? To say nothing of whether your genes are expressing themselves...

Obviously, a pre-WOD shake is a hand-crafted invitation to Pukie, complete with an RSVP. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn post-workout insulin spike, though. Necessary? Probably not. Useful, especially when there is less variety of training than that afforded by the WOD alone and when muscle gain is a matter of concern? Maybe.
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:12 PM   #4
Charles Steven Ossenheimer
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greg
i absolutely agree..thats why i stopped doing the weight lifting crap routine...just got boring and i have the genetics to be lean and cut..ill never be the type to get huge (its just not in my genes). i gonna take your advice on not eating a whole lot before.

i think ill just stick to some fruit and nuts for now before, and maybe like a smoothie for after..thanks again for the help
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:35 PM   #5
Greg Battaglia
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Ross,

No offense here either, but can you tell if your insulin is raised post workout because you ate a sugar/carb laden meal? Ofcourse not. We could say that about just about any physiological process. But, since we know a good deal of information about human physiology we have a good idea of what physiological processes can occur in certain circumstances. From first hand experience I can confidently say that my health and performance has benefitted from my practices. As I said, I'm concerned for health and performance, not being huge. So yes, maybe insulin post-workout will help you get huge, but I doubt it has any health benefits (and is probably actually harmful). Charles, no problem, let us now how it turns out.
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:08 PM   #6
Ross Hunt
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Greg,

Yes, you can tell if your insulin is elevated post-workout. Signs include:

- Sugar high.
- Slight sugar bonk as you come down from the sugar high.
- Correlated slight increase in muscle volume due to pumping glycogen into the muscle
- If none of this is satisfactory, you can also just get a diabetic test kit, take a drop of blood, and get an insulin reading.

Similarly, you can notice GH elevation psychologically when working out on an empty stomach. Moreover, both GH and insulin elevation have been documented, and their good and bad effects have been extensively documented and can be weighed against each other. But where is the evidence that a post-workout insulin spike is bad for neuroendocrine response or gene expression?

Also, insulin spike is not just about getting huge--it is about enhancing recovery, allowing athletes to handle high workloads, whether they're attempting to gain weight, lose weight, or just maintain and improve performance.

(Message edited by Orestes122484 on April 21, 2006)
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:52 PM   #7
Greg Battaglia
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I see what you're saying, but do you really KNOW that your blood sugar is high? That's what I was getting at. You can tell if your GH is high by light headedness (as you mentioned). These are all signs. But you personally have no absolute way of telling that a process happened without the use of technology. How do you know you didn't get light headed because of some other cause? Maybe you didn't sleep much the night before? Who knows? You could just as well get a blood test to measure elevated levels of norepinephrine (fight or flight hormone) as you could for any hormone. Also, there is evidence that a post workout carb meal (and most protein supplements are loaded with sugar) can alter gene expression, check it out

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 5866225&dopt=Abstract

The point is you can't prove it without actually having tests. What I was getting at is that something could sound good in theory, but it isn't worth anything unless it carries over to the real world, especially for your intended goals. Frankly, I don't think Charles is aspiring to be the next Mr. Universe, and if he is Crossfit is not the way to go. I fully understand that a post workout insulin spike is useful for bodybuilders, but it is not conducive to good health. I'm not trying to start an argument here, just setting my point straight.

(Message edited by greg_battaglia on April 21, 2006)
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:48 PM   #8
Ross Hunt
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Greg,

Thanks for the study; I didn't know any research had actually been done on the subject.

At the risk of being nit-picking, the conclusion "the present study demonstrates that GLUT4 mRNA and HK II mRNA in the exercised human skeletal muscle were significantly lowered by a high-carbohydrate diet" is not warranted when half of the subjects were fed carbs post-workout and the other half fasted. What if any post-workout food intake lowers gene expression? What if consumption of high-quality protein in conjunction with high-GI carbohydrate increases gene expression post-workout? Consumption of post-workout shakes has been shown to temporarily DECREASE protein synthesis in the short run (first hours after workout), but is still widely to be beneficial in the long run (twenty four hours); what if insulin spike has an analogous effect on gene expression, temporarily supressing gene expression only to afford a spike in gene expression later?

All of these wild speculations just by way of pointing out the problematical character of such studies.

I still want to emphasize that insulin spike can be really useful for someone who can use extra lean body mass and has an easy time losing fat but a less easy time putting on muscle mass. If I'd remained satisfied with my 'genetics' and stuck to strict Zone/Paleo, I doubt I would weigh more than 165 pounds right now, at a height of 6,' and my bodyfat wouldn't be any lower than what I could get to in 2-4 weeks now anyway. The extra 20 pounds came from insulin spike.
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:59 PM   #9
Greg Battaglia
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No problem, I totally agree. It's kind of useless to debate something that we really don't even have conclusive evidence of. For me the no pre workout/ wait an hour before post workout meal pattern works really well for staying lean. For me, keeping bodyweight and fat as low as possible while maximizing performance is priority. I think it depends largely on your goals.
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Old 04-21-2006, 03:58 PM   #10
Ross Hunt
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"I think it depends largely on your goals."

I definitely agree.
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