Chek vs stiff: belly in or out while squating ?

Israel Halperin · 01-10-2007, 02:43 AM

from what i understand, paul chek recommends tucking the belly in to activte the TVA. stiff says belly out for reasons i dont understand.

what are the reasons stiff belives in belly out?

also, if anyone can direct me to a scientific article about the issue i will appreciate it

Lincoln Brigham · 01-10-2007, 09:07 AM

"Belly out" advice is usually meant for those who use a belt, i.e. competitive powerlifters.

Martin Schap · 01-10-2007, 09:18 AM

You don't have to be using a belt for belly out to be useful. It is a good visualization for the valsalva maneuver- take a deep breath into your stomach and hold it while keeping your abs braced (not sucked in) will protect you from injury to some extent. This is not necessarily a PLers "big air" against a belt, but it is a similar concept of using a big breath to aid in bracing the core.

Mike ODonnell · 01-10-2007, 12:35 PM

you can draw in your TVAs first but also draw in air to fill the diaphram and increase the abdominal pressure/spinal support (all while still having TVAs contracted). Takes practice.

Guest2 · 01-10-2007, 02:07 PM

i concur with my esteemed colleage mike. better to draw in as much air to expand the abdominal and thoracic cavity, clamp down the epiglottis, and then clamp down the abdominal musculature. that will produce the greatest possible abdominal/thoracic pressure.

Skip Chase · 01-10-2007, 04:43 PM

Here! Here!

www.mtbakercrossfit.blogspot.com

Mike ODonnell · 01-10-2007, 06:30 PM

I have "epiglottis"....wow....must of been that girl from the bar Sat night.

Israel Halperin · 01-11-2007, 03:52 AM

thanks for the replies.

does anyone know exactly what they dont agree about ? and what arguments do they use to validate their points ?

Matthew Swift · 01-11-2007, 04:41 AM

I think Chek is often misinterpreted ... from my understanding the "draw your belly button to your spine" is actually meant to be a cue or visualisation to get internal muscles activated (which happens neurally not through active contraction). It was not meant to mean "suck in your belly" but I have seen it often misinterpreted that way. If you visualise drawing in your belly button without actually doing it, TVA will fire and you should fell a "lift" or "wrapping" sensation of your internal muscles. The visualisation actually works a lot better if you forget about your belly button entirely and pick a spot about 2 inches below your belly button, and then try to draw that spot into your spine. If you do this properly you will find that you can do both at the same time, ie, activate your TVA AND draw in air and brace the abdominal cavity as per the great advice above. Both actions are important for lumber and thoracic health and safety. Having said that, if you brace as per Greg's instructions, TVA will fire anyway so the visualisation is redundant. I heard a great quote "show me someone who can deadlift 400 and I'll show you TVA activation" :-)

Garry Berryhill · 01-11-2007, 01:19 PM

IIRC, the big stink between Chek and Siff was that Siff felt it was unnecessary to consciously activate the TVA. Things got pretty acrimonious; aspersions were cast, bad names called (gasp!). I remember that Siff came out ahead in their exchanges; he was a pretty canny dude.

Those were fun times. Now Siff has passed on and Paul Chek has gone off the deep end. This is an age without heroes.

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01-10-2007, 02:43 AM	#1
Israel Halperin Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: tel aviv tel aviv Posts: 65	from what i understand, paul chek recommends tucking the belly in to activte the TVA. stiff says belly out for reasons i dont understand. what are the reasons stiff belives in belly out? also, if anyone can direct me to a scientific article about the issue i will appreciate it

01-10-2007, 09:07 AM	#2
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,987	"Belly out" advice is usually meant for those who use a belt, i.e. competitive powerlifters.

01-10-2007, 09:18 AM	#3
Martin Schap Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Lafayette IN Posts: 523	You don't have to be using a belt for belly out to be useful. It is a good visualization for the valsalva maneuver- take a deep breath into your stomach and hold it while keeping your abs braced (not sucked in) will protect you from injury to some extent. This is not necessarily a PLers "big air" against a belt, but it is a similar concept of using a big breath to aid in bracing the core.

01-10-2007, 12:35 PM	#4
Mike ODonnell Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,566	you can draw in your TVAs first but also draw in air to fill the diaphram and increase the abdominal pressure/spinal support (all while still having TVAs contracted). Takes practice.

01-10-2007, 02:07 PM	#5
Guest2 Departed Profile: Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1,095	i concur with my esteemed colleage mike. better to draw in as much air to expand the abdominal and thoracic cavity, clamp down the epiglottis, and then clamp down the abdominal musculature. that will produce the greatest possible abdominal/thoracic pressure.

01-10-2007, 04:43 PM	#6
Skip Chase Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mount Vernon WA Posts: 1,324	Here! Here! www.mtbakercrossfit.blogspot.com

01-10-2007, 06:30 PM	#7
Mike ODonnell Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,566	I have "epiglottis"....wow....must of been that girl from the bar Sat night.

01-11-2007, 03:52 AM	#8
Israel Halperin Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: tel aviv tel aviv Posts: 65	thanks for the replies. does anyone know exactly what they dont agree about ? and what arguments do they use to validate their points ?

01-11-2007, 04:41 AM	#9
Matthew Swift Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Brisbane Queensland Posts: 119	I think Chek is often misinterpreted ... from my understanding the "draw your belly button to your spine" is actually meant to be a cue or visualisation to get internal muscles activated (which happens neurally not through active contraction). It was not meant to mean "suck in your belly" but I have seen it often misinterpreted that way. If you visualise drawing in your belly button without actually doing it, TVA will fire and you should fell a "lift" or "wrapping" sensation of your internal muscles. The visualisation actually works a lot better if you forget about your belly button entirely and pick a spot about 2 inches below your belly button, and then try to draw that spot into your spine. If you do this properly you will find that you can do both at the same time, ie, activate your TVA AND draw in air and brace the abdominal cavity as per the great advice above. Both actions are important for lumber and thoracic health and safety. Having said that, if you brace as per Greg's instructions, TVA will fire anyway so the visualisation is redundant. I heard a great quote "show me someone who can deadlift 400 and I'll show you TVA activation" :-)

01-11-2007, 01:19 PM	#10
Garry Berryhill Member Profile: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tulsa OK Posts: 158	IIRC, the big stink between Chek and Siff was that Siff felt it was unnecessary to consciously activate the TVA. Things got pretty acrimonious; aspersions were cast, bad names called (gasp!). I remember that Siff came out ahead in their exchanges; he was a pretty canny dude. Those were fun times. Now Siff has passed on and Paul Chek has gone off the deep end. This is an age without heroes.