CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-18-2009, 10:30 PM   #1
Andrew Wilson
Departed Andrew Wilson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 304
Lightbulb Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

It seems everywhere online there's either a debate or interest in how to gain more strength via the CrossFit wod. Now there's many many styles of programming that are branching out cause of this, creating some kind of pull almost against CrossFit, and either way you'll 1) lose strength or 2) lose conditioning. There's much of a misconception that CrossFit is a strength & conditioning program, it's not, it's a conditioning program that demands strength. The only strength gained will come from adapting to the conditioning.
Say something like 95# in a thruster.
If doing 95# is extremely heavy but managable, you're body will adapt to move 95#, gaining strength & making it light, more moveable, eventually meeting the demands of 95# in that thruster wod, thus you'll be able to perform your wod faster. If 95# is extremely light, and you can manage and move it like lightning, you're body will adapt to move it as faster lightning, thus making your wod faster; but it won't train you to become 10% stronger than you're 1RM thruster because it isn't relative enough to your own maximum strength.

95#
(weak) - ............will gain strength adaptation................ = ..........will lose strength & adapt for speed............+ (strong)

Insert the CrossFit Dilemma & Enter CrossFit Strength Bias or additional strength work, & amazing athletes with a strength history background tearing up wod records

The principle behind CrossFit is training the athlete to be able to do more work, Increasing Work Capacity Across Broad Time and Modal Domains (ICWCABTAMD). Notice Work Capacity, Time & Domains, and not Strength. CrossFit trains athletes to do more work faster. In able to do more work faster, you must adapt to the work to do it faster and more of it. For many people with a slow Fran to this may mean gaining limited strength to perform Fran faster, or someone already strong, gaining conditioning in able to finish Fran faster. But again, not so much the overall strength:

If you're 6'1 200 pound man, a Nancy time with a 95 pound x15 overhead squat is going to be fast, however, if you're an Oly lifter who can overhead squat 350 pounds & then you do Nancy for a year, it's not going to help you overhead squat 400 pounds, in fact you'll lose strength. That's obvious. The same if you're 200 pounds and can max shoulder press 180 pounds, but doing Fran with 95 pounds isn't going to train you to shoulder press 230 pounds. Again, because it isn't relative enough to your own maximum strength.

In the wods, there isn't a stimulus based on your own maximum strength for your body to adapt to nor a continual challenge, *other than doing work fast*. This is why strong athletes will lose strength, and very weak athletes will gain limited strength then plateau. You're overall strength will not increase substantially like it would in Starting Strength or Olympic Lifting where the loads are based on your relative maximum strength and building stimuli is applied.

So how can this be solved?
Do you continue to do the wods and wait for a minimal increase to come years later?
Do you continue with the wods and add additional strength work, losing a portion of your conditioning and gaining a portion of strength while mixing a group of stimuli?
Or do you stop the wods for 5x5s losing your amazing CrossFit conditioning, but gain amazing strength?
That's a dilemma.



But why not do neither and just specificly adapt the wods based on your 1RM? This is a question I'm asking to CrossFit trainers & programmers, or at least introduce an additional idea to build on the CrossFit greatness.
Why keep Fran with 95# or any other wod's Rx'd weight on a set weight? Why not Rx the weight based on the athlete's 1RM or single heavy of a thruster?
The heart of all strength programs is exactly this, in CrossFit this is missing, & thus the CrossFit strength dilemma appears.

My proposal:
Last spring I interned with two of the best Olympic Lifting coaches in North America. Every Oly coach has a theoretical max rep chart. In this chart there is a rep breakdown of how many reps x a certain weight would = you're 1RM. I've created an excel calculator that applies this to CrossFit. In reverse you base the CrossFit wod's weight on a percentage that is the rep equivalent to doing that 1RM.
Fran:
21-15-9 for time
Thruster with 61%, 69%, 79% of 1RM Thruster
Pullups

Diane:
21-15-9 for time
Deadlift with 61%, 69%, 79% of 1RM Deadlift
Handstand pushups

Nancy:
5 rounds for time
400 meter run
Overhead squat 69% of 1RM OHS x15

Will the times be slower? Yes. But once the athlete adapts to this style then goes back to the original wod weight, that wod will be much easier. Much easier = greater work capacity. Will it be harder? Yes. But you'll become stronger by adapting to more, and "strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general." Is changing weight a pain? Yes. But in every strength training program you change weights & it takes 2 seconds. By doing this also, the true nature of CrossFit is maintain with the addition sought after emphasis on strength.

Thoughts? I welcome the counter points & people willing to try it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2009, 10:50 PM   #2
Steven Low
Member Steven Low is offline
 
Steven Low's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: silver spring  maryland
Posts: 12,221
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

The method you propose (some slight difference) has already been written about extensively here wfs:
http://crossfitottawa.com/lportal/web/guest/camps

Difference -- load scaling per round is NOTTTTTTTTTTT recommended though. The load scaling to 1 RM is according to the prilepin table and consistent through rounds.

It's actually also an article in PMenu, so I'm not quite sure if it's supposed to be posted on that site as well (even though it's Pierre's site). Shrug.


I am personally still in favor of pure power/strength work for novices and intermediates though. I've seen strength/power work translate over too much to metabolic ability not to heavily bias for it in weak athletes especially.
__________________
Posts are NOT medical, training, nutrition info
Bodyweight Article, Overcoming Gravity Book

Last edited by Steven Low : 08-18-2009 at 11:07 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2009, 10:50 PM   #3
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

I'm too lazy to dig up the link, but a recent CFJ article addressed exactly this point. The article essentially argued that people should be willing to scale up as well as down. For example, a strong person who already has a good time will get more benefit by doing Fran with 105# (say) rather than trying to shave off a few seconds Rxed.

Often, new people are reluctant to scale down when they should, because they don't want to admit that the Rxed workout is too hard. It wouldn't surprise me at all if people at the other extreme risk complacency: they get attached to having a good Fran time, and don't realize that the good time just means the Rxed workout is too easy.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2009, 10:54 PM   #4
Cormac O'Connor
Member Cormac O'Connor is offline
 
Cormac O'Connor's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tokyo  Japan
Posts: 253
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

just one niggle - I wonder why you have a higher proportion of 1RM for each round of Fran, etc? The reason for the lower reps in each round is ostensibly that each round feels progressively harder anyway...upping the weight would just compound this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2009, 11:27 PM   #5
Rafe Kelley
Member Rafe Kelley is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bellingham   Washington
Posts: 115
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

Your essay is answered simple this is why the main site regular has, squat 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 or 3-3-3-3-3 that is the strength side of the strength and conditioning program. The question is not whether crossfit does strength it is whether it does strength enough with plan that is optimal for athletes of all levels.

Its is my opinion that most novices would do better with linear strength program with metabolic training on top of that and an advanced trainee needs a real periodization scheme to achieve optimal strength goals which is absolute essential to work capacity.

That is not the position of crossfit of course, and the have some pretty impressive athletes to back up there case. Time will reveal trends as to what works best.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 12:12 AM   #6
Rafe Kelley
Member Rafe Kelley is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bellingham   Washington
Posts: 115
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

Forgot to mention. As far as scaling wods by precentage possible advantegeous for higher level met con performance but likely less advantegeous for strength then a true strength program.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 12:20 AM   #7
Eugene Goldashkin
Member Eugene Goldashkin is offline
 
Eugene Goldashkin's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woodburn  OR
Posts: 169
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

i have been wondering about this same thing and about doing it in a similar way i guess i might give it a go some time.
__________________
male 23/185/6'
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 06:01 AM   #8
Scott Dyck
Member Scott Dyck is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philadelphia  PA
Posts: 186
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post


I am personally still in favor of pure power/strength work for novices and intermediates though. I've seen strength/power work translate over too much to metabolic ability not to heavily bias for it in weak athletes especially.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 07:00 AM   #9
Ryan Whitley
Departed Ryan Whitley is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 458
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

Rob Shaul does exactly that. He'll have his guys work up to a 1RM and then base the loads for conditioning on that 1RM. It's good stuff.

www.militaryathlete.com (WFS)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2009, 09:19 AM   #10
Ramon Gomez
Member Ramon Gomez is offline
 
Ramon Gomez's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sacramento  CA
Posts: 177
Re: Answering the strength interest in CrossFit

CFSB suggests something similar, but reduces the reps. In my gym we've taken to doing a single heavy metcon a week.
About a week ago I did "Heavy D.T." It was 195 lbs, 5 rounds, in a 7-5-3 (deadlift, hang power clean, push jerk, for those who don't know the original workout). The workout was brutal, but I finished it in nearly the same time I did regular D.T. in a week prior to that, plus I felt that my body got an adequate strength workout.
I really think that CFSB is a better step in the direction you're suggesting.
__________________
37/M/5'11/270 lbs - 1660 CFFBT - Slammedfan (pilot in production)
Started CrossFit December 2008/switched to CrossFit Football November 2009
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CrossFit Interest in Fargo, ND? Charles Gerszewski In Search of CrossFitters 4 10-15-2010 02:43 PM
Interest in a Minneapolis CrossFit? Michael Sampson In Search of CrossFitters 9 10-16-2008 11:24 PM
Answering your cell phone while doing tri presses... Joshua Murphy Community 9 10-09-2006 10:23 AM
CrossFit Minneapolis - Interest?? Damian Hirtz Community 3 09-09-2006 08:30 AM
Crossfit Dallas - Any interest? John Daniel Running a CrossFit Facility 14 08-18-2005 07:26 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.