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Old 10-16-2009, 06:27 PM   #71
Benjamin Wheeler
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

There is definitely no one size fits all diet, as everyone agrees on. But to state you would get the same results from this diet or that diet if the calories where the same is just nuts. Take GOMAD for instance, do you actually think you would get the same gains if you were to replace all of those calories with say crackers? No of course not, milk has amazing effects on growth (IGF1-2, blocks IGF 3 binding protein,) far beyond the calorie count. Getting your protein from "any mixed diet" isn't the same. No matter what Darryl says, or how many AHA links he posts. Protein sources must be dense to elicit a glucagon response, and hormones matter.

I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by a couple of studies done on bodybuilders and a few "endurance" athletes. I don't think we need any science. Do what makes sense. The only food you can't overeat in nature? Carbohydrates. Apples don't fall from the tree year round. Where as I can kill an animal or fish all year. Does the body fat of that animal vary? Sure it does, but I can show you many wild animals with plenty of fat on them. Especially when you consider we ate more than just the muscle.

What matter besides health...performance. I perform great on a low-carb diet, consuming most calories from fat and the rest protein.Depeding on the WOD, some apple sauce/sweet potatoes PWO. Mat Lalonde just did a great post about low-carb eating and performance on Robb's site. http://*************/?p=782 (WFS)

Jamie,

great point, if we are raising our blood glucose, no free fatty acids are going to be burned. All this calorie talk is oversimplified to the max. There is ALOT more going on here then swapping this food for that food, this calorie for that one.
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Old 10-16-2009, 08:16 PM   #72
Santiago Suarez
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

Man, is it hard to stay paleo, I have no idea how to begin or start. I did mostly paleo today except for condiments/sauces and like 2 cups of honeycomb cereal and Sobe 0 calorie life water, if that counts as not being paleo which i suppose it does. Ugh, I want to lose this weight that I've kinda gained here at college(like 5lbs) and I want to get leaner/do the WODs unscaled. Ive been going to the gym and doing regular workouts that include free weights and circuit training but I'd like to do the WODs that I can.
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:09 AM   #73
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw
Dietary fats are not required to fuel lower intensity activities because even the leanest of us carries enough adipose tissue to fuel many days of submaximal activity.
We won;t use those store if there is plenty of glucose in the blood stream from dietary carbs.
Are you sure about that? (wfs)
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:27 AM   #74
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
I believe the bottom line is when in a caloric surplus none of this really matter that much. If you overeat kcal in fat, it's stored directly as fat. If you eat more carbs, more of the fat you ate turns to fat etc. etc. And yes in some cases carbs can actually be converted to fat even though this is not common.

Really though, if one is merely meeting energy balance or in a deficit I think it matters not whether more kcal come from carbs or from fat, from a fat gain perspective. Without surplus energy no fat is created anyway.

of course it could matter greatly for other reasons... like how one feels, or performs athletically etc.

Some people certainly feel far better eating less carbohydrate and more dietary fat, some the opposite. Some are fine with either, or somewhere in between.

but I've never heard an athlete complain of feeling 'worse' from eating up to 1g or 1.5g protein per pound of bodyweight, and since there are no adverse effects that we know of... and dietary protein is very satiating... and meat is delicious... then why not.

I'm sure one would be just fine eating the 1.2 - 1.8g per kg if they had a hard time getting more due to dietary choices (veggie/vegan) or simply not really liking protein foods that much.. but for those of us who love protein foods, and would actually have to make an effort to eat less protein (and be unhappy about it) why bother reducing it.
There are adverse effects from eating too much protein just as there are adverse effects from too much anything. This threads making me lose the will to live (not your fault) so I won't go into a long detailed explanation or cite studies but problems arise because you can only eat so much per day whether that's in terms of total calories or simply the amount of food you can cram in your stomach. Eating large amounts of protein (usually meat) means that you tend to reduce the amount of other stuff you eat that day (usually fruit and vegetables) and the lack of variety resulting from this dietary pattern increases your risk of suffering from deficiencies in micronutrients, antioxidants, phytochemicals etc which increases your risk of developing numerous diseases.

Basically a good diet is a varied diet and relying too much on any single food increases your risk of disease.
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:39 AM   #75
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Greg Privitera View Post
We do need the science. But we also need better studies. Everyone has read the studies you're referencing. There seems to be no disadvantage to higher protein intakes up to 1-1-5g/lb and possible benefits.

Dietary fats aren't needed to fuel daily activities? What are the calories for? Why are we discussing energy balance and including fat in the discussion if fat doesn't matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Wheeler View Post
There is definitely no one size fits all diet, as everyone agrees on. But to state you would get the same results from this diet or that diet if the calories where the same is just nuts. Take GOMAD for instance, do you actually think you would get the same gains if you were to replace all of those calories with say crackers? No of course not, milk has amazing effects on growth (IGF1-2, blocks IGF 3 binding protein,) far beyond the calorie count. Getting your protein from "any mixed diet" isn't the same. No matter what Darryl says, or how many AHA links he posts. Protein sources must be dense to elicit a glucagon response, and hormones matter.

I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by a couple of studies done on bodybuilders and a few "endurance" athletes. I don't think we need any science. Do what makes sense. The only food you can't overeat in nature? Carbohydrates. Apples don't fall from the tree year round. Where as I can kill an animal or fish all year. Does the body fat of that animal vary? Sure it does, but I can show you many wild animals with plenty of fat on them. Especially when you consider we ate more than just the muscle.

What matter besides health...performance. I perform great on a low-carb diet, consuming most calories from fat and the rest protein.Depeding on the WOD, some apple sauce/sweet potatoes PWO. Mat Lalonde just did a great post about low-carb eating and performance on Robb's site. http://*************/?p=782 (WFS)

Jamie,

great point, if we are raising our blood glucose, no free fatty acids are going to be burned. All this calorie talk is oversimplified to the max. There is ALOT more going on here then swapping this food for that food, this calorie for that one.
This is turning into one of those pointless science vs religion type debates and I get the feeling that no matter how many studies or texts I cite you aren't prepared to believe anything I say so I'm just going to say **** it and give up.

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 10-17-2009 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:53 AM   #76
Scott Clark
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

The double standards around here are astounding. When Darryl or anyone else cites a study, it will be ripped apart from 50 different angles and excuses will be given claiming the study was biased, not properly controlled, was funded by (x) organization, etc. However, when the study came out several months ago that claimed that low carb/ketogenic diets demonstrated better health markers in the subjects it was perfectly fine and heralded as solid proof by most here, Art DeVany, etc...... even though it was funded by the Atkins Foundation.

I'm just looking for consistency with all of this. Most will argue with Darryl because he tells people and demonstrates through studies what they don't want to hear. The same can be said about those who are bound and determine to never accept that low carb can be healthy. What annoys me is that no one wants to be completely honest. If you love Paleo or eating tons of meat, just say "I love eating a lot of meat". It isn't necessary to hypothesize about what people ate (or didn't eat) millions of years ago just to justify your personal food preferences.

Is Paleo the best diet "bar none"? Of course not. There is no perfect diet. Despite what alternative medicine folks say, diet alone (assuming basic nutritional needs are met) is a small part of the development of disease. I read all of these blogs where people claim that eating a certain way (be it Paleo, vegetarian, vegan, Westan A Price, ect) is the key to prevent cancer. Really? The best estimates out there is that dietary habits may prevent up to 15% - 20% of certain types of cancers. Now 15-20% is great, but if those percentages were you chances of survival in a game of Russian Roulette I doubt many would feel confident that they are good to go.

When Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer what happened in the alternative/blogger community? All of the talking heads from blogs many of us read (some for info, others for entertainment) claimed that high carb, excessive cardio, and hell even the bicycle seat caused his cancer. Not many if anyone said what is true, that ______ happens. I've always wondered what the reaction would be if one of the prominent Paleo practitioners or vegetarian heroes developed cancer TODAY. What would the excuse be from their respective camps? What it would show is that everything they claim is not entirely true. Diet and even a "perfect" lifestyle cannot protect you from all diseases. Type II diabetes? Almost certainly. Cancer/CVD/stroke/diseases of dementia? No.

I apologize for the long post and I don't like coming off so negative, but there are so many people who are full of BS who have somehow gained a cult-like following based largely on anecdotal evidence and who ALL just so happen to be selling products. Food, books, clothing, etc. will always be available from these blogs/websites when there is no consistent scientific evidence to support their outrageous claims. That's what I despise about all of these gurus and websites.... Paleo, vegetarian, low carb, low fat, or whatever is the drug of choice at the time.

Last edited by Scott Clark : 10-17-2009 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:11 PM   #77
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

Scott, if you take a second look at just this thread you will see just that. Laura said that she just likes protein. I said I just like how I feel when I eat Paleo. It does not preclude us from talking about the science and long term benefits of this or that diet.

If one of the Paleo gurus comes down with cancer, I'll attribute it to the all the years he ate the western diet before going paleo.

I'm kidding. Paleo type diets will probably reduce your risk of chronic disease, it isn't (and was never tauted in the board as) a bullet proof vest. I think your kool-aid radar is giving you a false positive reading. People here enjoy both the diet and the debate around it (not in the paleo support thread).
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:49 PM   #78
Sam Walker
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
This threads making me lose the will to live
Darryl. This wasn't my intention when I started the thread- I was hoping for a good debate on the flaws of Paleo, and thanks a lot for playing a key role in supplying that.

I agree with a lot of what Scott had to say. I've got a lot of reading to do.

As I see it "lean meat, and enough carbs from fruit and vegetables" pretty much fits the bill.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:27 PM   #79
Stephen Lewis Romer
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

This is a great thread to debate the paleo diet and I enjoy reading all the posts by all the people in this thread.

And no Scott I did not start the paleo diet because I like to eat meat. I started because I reached 305 pounds and the high carb starvation diet did not worked for me. I started the paleo diet on 8/15/2009 and as of today I am down to 264 without starving myself or counting calories. It works for me where high carb did not. And oh Yeah my triglycerides are down from 189 to 105 during that time period and blood sugar dropped from 101 to 97 too.

Darryl I read Good Calorie Bad Calorie and came to understand a lot of the studies claiming high Carb Diets are superior for health are just bad science. My personal experience proves to me that Taubes is right.

Last edited by Stephen Lewis Romer : 10-18-2009 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:49 PM   #80
Sarah Clent
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Sam Walker View Post
As I see it "lean meat, and enough carbs from fruit and vegetables" pretty much fits the bill.
to that!!!!
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