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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 08-05-2006, 03:56 PM   #31
Steven Low
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Argh, did you read any of my last post? Why is it so hard to believe that a different method of training can work? I already gave you a physiological approach as to why GTG works in my previous post. Look at it this way: olympic lifters practice their lifts for hours a day for nearly 6 days a week. Are they overtraining? Why aren't they overtraining? It is obvious that the intensity on their muscles is NOT enough to force them to take a day off to rest. In essence, they are doing something very similar to GTG -- they do sets interspersed throughout the day to work on specific strength of the exercise. Different methods of training produce different results, as I've said before. Depending on your goals, some can be better than others. For example, if you were trying to build muscle mass like bodybuilders, you would hit a muscle hard once or twice a week and rest the other days. If you are trying to build strength, there are a lot of methods you can take to approach this and one of them is GTG. There is also 5x5 programs, Pavel's power to the people, etc.

GTG improves specific strength/endurance in pretty much only the exercise you are doing with some carryover to other exercises that are similar to it (hence why kipping pullups will improve deadhangs). The training for this differs from other training in that high frequency without going to failure or exhausting yourself will make your CNS adapt to the exercise to increase strength/endurance. It COULD work with military presses or deadlifts given that you do them right. Usually high CNS taxing exercises (heavy compound exercises such as DLs and possibly) will prevent you from doing this type of training to increase specific strength in the exercise. Of course, I am sure that it could be done somehow and that it has worked for some people. I know a few people who have tried GTG on the front lever and improved immensely.

Basically what you want to do like 5 times interspersed throughout the day (say, before breakfast, brunch-ish, after lunch, right before dinner and right before you sleep) is to do submaximal sets of pullups and dips. So, for example, you do 8 pullups and 4 dips for max. 5 times during the day you would want to do 5-6 pullups and 2-3 dips for one set each and then just stop and go about the rest of your day.
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:29 PM   #32
Bobbi Beglau Salvini
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Steven: I have been trying to do pull ups for a while, and have been working through some shoulder injuries. I am fit and have been doing Crossfit for about 1.5 years. I weight 185 and am and old lady. ;-) This is the best information I have read on pull up training, and I will put the info. to good use.

I want to run some thoughts buy you that are perhaps just a reiteration of what has been said here, but in a rookie format that makes sense to my brain. I take fencing, and I constantly hear talk about developing fast twitch muscles verses slow twitch. In my gym, if people are struggling with the power and Olympic lifts, I hear coaches advise to drop weight and go for intensity, and also push for explosive movements. If you can do pull ups, I believe that kipping does the same as dropping weights and achieves what is needed to keep intensity and therefor develop fast twitch muscles. In trying to understand the dynamic of training, I have observed that all the movements have two parts. First sustaining the body plus weight and then the second part which is acceleration. The faster you can accelerate the movement, the less work the body has to do to sustain the weight. So even though you are moving the body the same distance, fast explosive pull ups are less work. Which I believe adds to why kipping works so well. Then all you have to do is get over the cardio demand, as with Kipping there is no hanging a moment between reps. ;-)

I have tried jumping pull ups, and jumping with negatives and installed a bar at home which I use when I go by. It seams that I have difficulty getting out of the bottom, which these did not seem to help as I was jumping through the bottom. Lately I have been trying a band, pulling with everything to explode out of the bottom and then use very slow negatives. I need the mental game thinking “fast twitch” to keep the intensity up. I am having good results getting sore so I am assuming I am going in the right direction.

Is this logical or have I missed the boat on all this sage advice? Comments please? Thanks,
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Old 08-07-2006, 03:33 PM   #33
Steven Low
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I am not sure if kipping develops the faster twitch muscle fibers than regular pullups. I suppose it could, but in the end I don't think it really matters too much. The reason why kipping seems to work so well to get a high amount of pullups in a shorter amount of time is that you can take the momentum from the kip and convert it into upward motion. It seems to be easier to increase the momentum of an object in motion rather than one at rest (kind of similar to overcoming the friction of an object at rest on the ground). In essence, we can focus on using the muscle fibers to enhance the upward motion of the pullup rather than the same amount of muscle fibers trying to get the movement started and THEN also maintaining the momentum of the pullup. From there, the GTG principle is pretty straight forward.

The very slow negatives are what is making you sore, not the fast pullups. Negatives basically are going to tear your muscles up which seems to induce an increase amount of delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) the next day(s).

I'm trying to think here though (and thus go on a bit of a "rant" trying to figure out what is going on)... I don't think there is a difference between pullups with fast or slow twitch muscle fibers because it isn't really an exercise where you need a fast explosive force like olympic lifts although I'm sure it would help benefit a little. As far as I can tell, the main driving force behind the advantage of the kip is the momentum that you already have and converting it in that upward motion... not being about to explode out of it although you could but you would be doing less work thus LOWERING the intensity in the end. With momentum and the acceleration of the muscles, you can obvious obtain a larger upward momentum than just with a dead hang straight acceleration of the muscles. The muscles will be doing the same amount of work, but you will be able to get higher with the former. The intensity of pullups with a kip increases because you are doing a larger volume of pullups in less time even though you are doing a bit less work. The benefits outweigh the negatives here to increase the intensity -- and exploding is going to lower the intensity a bit. Time under tension for the muscles is what is going to raise the intensity level of an exercise. I think the case in point here is that plyometrics are used to increase the generation of explosive power in the muscles, but they are not a particularly intense.

Uh, I don't know if that was coheret at all. I think what I was trying to get to in the end is that explosive movements actually lower the intensity of the exercise because it decreases the time under tension of the muscles. Of course, if you can do MORE work in the same amount of time, it will increase the intensity (but with your slow negatives, that's not the case). Although the amount of increase work you can do is pretty negligible when comparing slow and fast twitch fibers during sets of pullups. The intensity of kipping pullups versus deadhang pullups is increased because of the increased volume of pullups in less time at the expense of extra work of the muscles. Obviously, the former overrides the latter here. Exploding to increase the intensity is basically a non-factor (although it would be slightly detrimental to the intensity because of the lessening of the time under tension of the muscles versus the increased about of pullups you can do in the same amount of time).

Shoot, if anyone else reads this tell me if I'm going wrong here because I am kind of confusing myself as well. :-)
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:26 PM   #34
Bobbi Beglau Salvini
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Steven: Seeing that my mind was in overload reading your post, the last line just hit me and you made me laugh so hard my son could hear me outside. Thank you for that. So…. Seeing that I still can’t do a pull up without assist, if I can keep practicing the explosive movement, it may just help me get to my goal of being able to do any kind of pull up since it will decrease the intensity. Kipping is good, but I am not there yet. I opened a fortune cookie today and it said, ‘in all things patience is the best strategy”. I will check back and see if anyone else wants to jump in here…. Meanwhile, I will head off to the pull up bar. Thanks!
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:54 AM   #35
Jason Lopez-Ota
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kipping decreases the difficulty, but increase the intensity because of the greater amount you can do, faster.
someone correct me if im wrong. :banana:
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:29 PM   #36
David Schneider
 
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Perhaps kipping helps to engage more of the back in the pullup. Check out Front Lever Pull-ups in the Crossfit Exercise list, Misc Demos.

I've made some good progress in the last 2-3 months since starting with Crossfit, going from 1 pullup, barely, to 5 solid hanging ones. The kipping exercises I do seems to really "wake up" my spine and back muscles, along with pullup shrugs while semi-hanging.
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:37 PM   #37
Steven Low
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Yeah, it increases the intensity because of the increased volume is enough to override the decreased amount of work you do per "set".

Perhaps they engage the back more.. but it is really due to the conversion of momentum upwards to help your pullup that is the major factor in making it easier.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:58 PM   #38
Jason Lopez-Ota
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front lever pullups arent the same as kipping pullups. check out eva's kipping video.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:04 PM   #39
Jason Lopez-Ota
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great job with your progress
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:19 PM   #40
Bobbi Beglau Salvini
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Steve: When I re-read my post, I was thinking maybe you thought I was not taking your info. seriously. I was, and it is great info. It is all confusing, it just hit me funny the way you ended. Thanks again,

P.S. My 15 year old inventor son has set out to build me a home made gravitron. *lol*
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