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Old 08-09-2011, 08:37 AM   #31
Dave Coughlin
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

I seem to remember seeing Matt Chan pics on the CFFB site over the past couple years....does anyone know if Chan has any connection to CF Football? Seeing the short shuttles, plyo work, etc in the video gives me that impression.

I'm also a bit curious about the weight loss from 215# to 200#. Emmitt, Barry, and I'll even throw in Warrick Dunn into the mix, were undersized RBs that weighed around 200#; however, like Max said, an RB carrying 200# at 5'7" has a much different dynamic than an RB that is 5'11" It seems to me that Moreno wants to be more of a 3rd down type of back, as a opposed to a bell-cow RB....but I guess that's why Moreno plays in the NFL, and I drive a fire truck lol....

Aside from all the message board rhetoric, I think the story is pretty cool.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:38 AM   #32
Mark Boyle
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
What metabollic pathway do you feel is stressed the most in football?
Quoted from the link I posted above:
Anaerobic glycolysis, though it often supplies a large share of the energy in team sports, is not worthy of training focus because it is never fully taxed in team sports (it never reaches full power or full capacity). ATP-PC is obviously incredibly important due to the presence of repeated, high-intensity, short-duration efforts. The more powerful the aerobic system, the less you will have to rely on anaerobic glycolysis to replenish ATP-PC, which is a good thing because a high rate of prolonged anaerobic glycolysis is not compatible with sustained, high-level performance. Therefore, because it is not an important contributor to sport success, to incur the training stress necessary to improve it is not worth the time and effort. Training the anaerobic glycolytic system may result in improved oxidative capabilities in a good share of athletes (especially low-level), but such improvements can be made with a lesser input by targeting lower intensities.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:43 AM   #33
Steven Low
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

As a RB if NFL offseason would probably be better focused on:

Rehab/prehab from injuries
Improving agility/cuts + Sprinting ability (since he's still fairly young).
GPP

I don't think much metabolic work is a must except in case of GPP although I'm not sure how metabolic work a RB gets unless his offense does like 8+ runs in a row during a possession. Strength/power work seems to be a bit better especially since those attributes also help high end speed...
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:47 AM   #34
Mark Boyle
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Matt Haxmeier View Post
Barry Sanders was 5'8", Emmitt was 5'9", and Moreno is 5'11". Big difference when someone is 200lbs at 5'8" vs 5'11".

They said he lost 15lbs and his fran time went down....um yeah, that's because pullups are much easier after you lost 15lbs and could already do 14 @ 215. That in and of itself doesn't impress me. Losing 15lbs as a running back is generally bad news. And I see it as another case of crossfit making someone smaller than they need to be for the sake of doing better at crossfit.

The best running backs are not 5'11" 200lbs:
http://www.sports-central.org/sports...ning_backs.php (WFS)

I think some grip training is pretty reasonable. And working on added conditioning is pretty reasonable. But I'd probably be really careful around those movements which could cause shoulder injuries or rhabdo.

But Matt Chan is obviously pretty awesome at programming for crossfitters, so I'll be eager to see what he does here.
I too think that *some* grip training is reasonable - however using a full body movement to train grip (which is what I got from the comments in the video) seems very odd to me. There are probably better ways to do it (if a football player needs grip work beyond what they get from lifting weights anyway) that would cause less overall stress.

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But Matt Chan is obviously pretty awesome at programming for crossfitters, so I'll be eager to see what he does here.
This maybe sums up my point exaclty. Moreno has millions of dollars and his performance in the future will be worth millions as well. Given that he can afford to go anywhere and train with anyone and what is at stake, why go to someone who is "awesome at programming for crossfitters" instead of someone who is "awesome at programming for football players"?

It may work out well for him. There may be good answers to all my questions. It may be that this video wasn't reflective of what he's actually doing. But from what little I've seen, I'm not sure this was the best choice for him.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:48 AM   #35
Chris Mason
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

Mark, rather than cutting and pasting information you might want to do a bit of your own research and critical thinking.

How long do you think the ATP-CP pathway is good for? How does said well get replenished? How many times during a 30 minute period of repeated activity will that pathway be solely used?

Oh, and for the author you have quoted, he might want to get the pathway name right...
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:59 AM   #36
Mark Boyle
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't hear Matt say he was doing the KB workout to better grip the football, but for better grip strength in general. Working grip strength is important for overall strength, not sure why that would be bad just because he's a football player?
Its not bad, but how important is it really? Where is his ability to hold a barbell or kb going to hold him back?

Of course I may simply be reading too much from a one-off comment from the instructor.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:02 AM   #37
Mark Boyle
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Mark, rather than cutting and pasting information you might want to do a bit of your own research and critical thinking.

How long do you think the ATP-CP pathway is good for? How does said well get replenished? How many times during a 30 minute period of repeated activity will that pathway be solely used?

Oh, and for the author you have quoted, he might want to get the pathway name right...
It gets used for a few seconds - which is also the typical length of a football play.
It gets replenished via the aerobic system. This was mentioned in the quote I believe.
It will never be soley used.
There are numerous names for each system that are commonly used. I'm very confident the author (James Smith) knows more than you or I.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:57 AM   #38
Michael Petersen
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

I am a Broncos fan and obviously a CrossFit fan. I certainly agree that a running back dropping 15 pounds sounds negative, but the comment at the end of the video specified that at least part of this came from no longer eating crappy food. I dont care who you are, if you stop eating fast food and start eating clean, you will lean out.

Between Georgia and Denver Knowshon has had access to lots of strength programs and coaches/trainers. His comments led me to believe that despite all of that, his workout programs were beyond simple and apparenlty not getting Knowshon the results he wanted.

If Chan can improve his quickness and ability to hit the hole at speed, so much the better for the Broncos. If he can keep his body fresh throughout an entire game due to increased GPP, even better.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:21 PM   #39
Zach Reed
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
Of course it would tire out my forearms. That doesn't mean it will make them stronger.

Running 100 miles will tire out my legs. It won't improve my squat 1rm.

Moreno has played (and trained for) football for years. If that hasn't resulting in him moving past the beginner stage of adaptation for this movement, then it is HIGHLY unlikely that there is any correlation between the grip strength developed here and what is used on the field.

How well he can grip a bar using his hand isn't that important.

How well he can grip a large egg-shaped object using his hand and forearm (and often his other arm as well) is.

I doubt there is much correlation between the two.
I can't believe you're still trying to argue this...Overall stronger forearms = better ability to grip ANYTHING, including a football.

I said 5 minutes of interval grip work (kettlebell swings) would improve grip strength for holding onto a football for what will likely be sub 10 second intervals in a game, and your analogy to refute my proposal involved running 100 miles and a 1 RM back squat? Touché!
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:10 PM   #40
Kevin Bean
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Re: Knowshon Moreno Training at CF Verve w/ Video

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Originally Posted by Matt Haxmeier View Post
Barry Sanders was 5'8", Emmitt was 5'9", and Moreno is 5'11". Big difference when someone is 200lbs at 5'8" vs 5'11".

They said he lost 15lbs and his fran time went down....um yeah, that's because pullups are much easier after you lost 15lbs and could already do 14 @ 215. That in and of itself doesn't impress me. Losing 15lbs as a running back is generally bad news. And I see it as another case of crossfit making someone smaller than they need to be for the sake of doing better at crossfit.

The best running backs are not 5'11" 200lbs:
http://www.sports-central.org/sports...ning_backs.php (WFS)
.
Well Jamaal Charles is 5-11 and 199lbs and Chris Johnson is 5'11" and 195lbs.... I guess the proof will be in the pudding.

That said, CF has been preaching GPP and being good at everything but great at nothing for years. There's no bigger stage than the NFL for a running back, if I were Moreno I would have looked up Barry Sanders for tips long before Matt Chan (amazing in his own rights.)

Last edited by Kevin Bean : 08-09-2011 at 06:14 PM.
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