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Old 07-31-2005, 04:02 PM   #11
Kevin Roddy
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"Over and over again, I come across trainees who come from training programs emphasizing the OL lifts and many of these same individuals have very poor posterior chain strength/ cross-section. "


The oly lifts don't develop posterior chain strength? That's odd. It's been working pretty well for me.
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Old 07-31-2005, 07:01 PM   #12
David Wood
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The funniest thing about that rather misinformed discussion was mistaking me for Dave Werner (a real Navy SEAL). :lol:

Anyone who's met us both (or, actually, just met me) should be rolling on the floor, laughing.

Ah, if only it were true . . .
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Old 07-31-2005, 07:45 PM   #13
Robert Wolf
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I posted a little ditty over there.
Robb
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Old 07-31-2005, 08:57 PM   #14
Eric Moffit
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i didnt even realize there were multiple pages to that thread. however, it seems they got a little off-topic after the first page...anti-overhead lifting and such. the snatch being the 'world's fastest lift' seems to merit at least some work with it, methinks...

anyways, im interested to see how they respond, Robb.
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Old 07-31-2005, 09:19 PM   #15
Kalen Meine
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It just seems to be more of the same- "why would you do all of this together"? But no posterior change work? O-lifts are a quad movement? I do believe they are the ones in need of a Olympic coach. I suck at the bloody things, but my butt muscles are sore nearly every time we have a clean-fest. But any time someone mentions 37 variations on the lateral raise as a positive, you know there's gotta be something wrong. Lift naturally, people. And, they do seem to be exhibiting a strength bias pretty intensely. The little-man bias, the lack of "pure strength," all points to placing 1RM above all. That's just as bad of a bias on one of the ten elements of fitness as any other. And no gymnastics? Uh uh... if that isn't your bag, you shouldn't swap it out, you should emphasize it!
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Old 08-01-2005, 03:52 AM   #16
Hollis Petri
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I'm wondering about the anti-overhead/OL aspect of that thread in relation to the high injury rates.
It seems to me the crossfit community is a great study group that proves/disproves the injury claims in that I think the overwhelming majority of us don't get official Olympic lifting coaching and we obviously do a ton of overhead lifts (though much of it high rep)
Do we have a lot of shoulder injuries? Haven't noticed that in my year of frequenting this site. Though's its not something that I was looking for.
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Old 08-01-2005, 09:44 AM   #17
Rene Renteria
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Just reading this thread now. In the post after Robb's, a James Smith states the following:

Explosive power may be developed via a myriad of methodics; many of which are hugely more cost effective than the Olympic lifts.

Control of external objects, let's face it: you are really making things hard on yourself if you have found that Olympic weightlifting is the choice method of manipulating external resistance.


Could anyone summarize what methods he's referring to? I'm no athlete and haven't been exposed to much directed or studied training before. For example, for explosive power, would he be advocating plyometrics? Sprinting? Is there one type of training that other groups (such as powerdeveoopmentinc.com) think is the best (i.e., most "cost effective") way to gain explosiveness?

It's easy to say that there are many other things that are better than such-and-such, but when it comes down to being in the gym ready to work out, you have to do something specific. What do you think those movements are in this case?

Or is his argument that other methods are "more hugely cost effective than the Olympic lifts" because of his perceived cost of the Oly lifts, that they cause more injuries (his belief)? I don't understand the argument that the Oly lifts don't build explosive power (although over here on this board, many (most?) believe the opposite).

Like usual, somewhat confused!
Rene'
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:51 AM   #18
Eric Moffit
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Rene,
fear not...that guy definitely uses a lot of big words to say very little. as you noted, he offers no specific examples of his supposedly 'far more cost effective means of develping like qualities'. i can offer none of the supposed 'myriad of methodics' that develop explosive power which is not a derivative of the OLs. when you talk explosive power, youre talking tri-joint extension (hip, knee, ankle), and thats what the OLs are all about.

he also criticizes the OLs as a means to increase control of external objects. um, how else do you propose i get 300 pounds over my head...or even to my shoulders...and if we're just talking to carrying height, remember a DL is basically a non-explosive OL (same tri-joint extension). sure, deltoid raises are an example of controlling external weight, but are you seriously going to lift something at arms length, much less something of substantial weight??

also, his criticism of the OLs' critical motor recruitment patterns is ridiculous. "Critical motor recruitment patterns, critical to what- weightlifting"...or how about critical to any form of tri-joint extension, namely, any form of jumping (volleyball, basketball, football, etc), running (track, soccer, baseball, football, basketball, etc), or swinging/throwing (baseball, golf, track and field etc). a while back Coach B posted a link to an excellent video on just this (http://www.safe-usa.com/ and click on "Explosive Training Video" under "Coaches"...it took a minute to download).
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Old 08-01-2005, 11:33 AM   #19
Kevin Roddy
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Robb: Every time I read an old-timey strength book, they use the word "splendid" at least once. Props for that.
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Old 08-01-2005, 12:12 PM   #20
Ron Nelson
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Pretty interesting discussion. I liked the fact that Steve Shafley got in there (he's the one who mistook Dave Wood for Werner). I think Shaf is a member of every training forum on the net, including his own. He had some very accurate points and criticisms of CF (mainly the groupthink comment).
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