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Old 08-12-2008, 09:17 PM   #31
Tim M. Davis
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
If soliders can't handle a workout that thousands of everday people can handle, maybe we need new soliders. Apparently, our military commanders don't think much of the average solider.
Maybe I am reading into this statement too much, but 1st of all it wasn't a Soldier but a Sailor. Being a Marine myself I do not like to be called a Soldier or Sailor and I am sure respective branches will agree. Yes "thousands of everyday people" can handle this type of workout but do those people volunteer to defend their country? I am not defending this guy by no means, but before we go saying "maybe we need new Soldiers" lets take a look at who those Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors are. They are the men and women who are fighting for everyone's freedom, so unless you are serving or volunteering to be a "new Soldier" re-think your comment! Again I may be reading too much into this comment but it kind of made me mad that someone would have the audacity to say that.
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Last edited by Tim M. Davis; 08-12-2008 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:53 PM   #32
Derek Maffett
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Tim M. Davis View Post
Maybe I am reading into this statement too much, but 1st of all it wasn't a Soldier but a Sailor. Being a Marine myself I do not like to be called a Soldier or Sailor and I am sure respective branches will agree. Yes "thousands of everyday people" can handle this type of workout but do those people volunteer to defend their country? I am not defending this guy by no means, but before we go saying "maybe we need new Soldiers" lets take a look at who those Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors are. They are the men and women who are fighting for everyone's freedom, so unless you are serving or volunteering to be a "new Soldier" re-think your comment! Again I may be reading too much into this comment but it kind of made me mad that someone would have the audacity to say that.
If his comment was aimed the way you seem to think it was, then it would seem that Jamie was insulting the soldier for being so weak as to get rhabdo. Not the case - I think he was commenting on the command structure's desire to stop its soldiers (I really don't care about distinctions between the branches - any military/law enforcement/whatever personel) from doing Crossfit, despite the fact that regular people handle it just fine. In other words, it's like they are saying "Our soldiers are too weak to handle what civilians handle," which, if true, indicates that the command structure thinks their soldiers are worthless or that the soldiers really are worthless (and if that's the case, then they aren't very much good as "soldiers," are they?).

And incidentally, you don't have to be a member of the armed forces to comment on them.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:45 AM   #33
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Derek,
Because you don't care about the distinction doesn't make it not important. This man was a Sailor. Sailors (and Solidiers, and Marines, and Airmen, see we all have our own cool names) are regular people, some weak and some strong. The military is risk averse, that's a statement about it's characteristics not it's people. I also wonder what was meant by that comment, and agree that that kind of comment is best made by someone who has served or clarified.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:49 AM   #34
Jeff Bixby
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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Originally Posted by Tim M. Davis View Post
Maybe I am reading into this statement too much, but 1st of all it wasn't a Soldier but a Sailor. Being a Marine myself I do not like to be called a Soldier or Sailor and I am sure respective branches will agree.
Hey Tim - take a look at your ID card...it says Department of the Navy....so doesn't that make you a sailor? Just kidding!

On the surface, it seems to me that this is just one of those lawsuits in which a person is trying to blame everyone but themselves for an injury they cause. But on the other hand, just how much DID the trainer push him into rhabdo? This remains to be seen in court in October.

But being retired military, I also echo the previous comments that the military brass will WAY over react to this and try to ban Crossfit training for their members...the writing is on the wall. Two articles in military health journals and now a lawsuit will surely push them into a rabid frenzy to "do something" about this. Never mind that there are WAY MORE injuries and deaths due to combat, you don't see them banning combat do you? WAY MORE injuries and deaths due to driving, but they aren't banning their members from driving.

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Old 08-13-2008, 07:37 AM   #35
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Sorry, I just saw the comments to my comments. Let me clarify.

I did not serve, though I tried on three seperate occasions to join; 1 as enlisted before college, 1 as officer and 1 as enlisted post college. On all occasions, I was rejected due to medical issues. So no, I did not serve, and this is something that bothers me. I have consoled myself by working for a defense contract directly supporting the War Fighter.

As far as the meaning of my post, I was critizing the command structure for their apparaent low opinion of the physical capabilities of the average military personel (a general term which I hope is not insulting to any particular branch). If the average civilian, who is not responsible for protecting other civilians from rough and dangerous men who would do us harm, can handle crossfit, and the average military personnel cannot handle this training, this is truely a sad state for our armed forces.

I would hazzard a guess that this is more a reflection upon the upper command that is so fearful and risk adverse, that they would eliminate anything that might possibly cause harm, regardless of the possible reward than the vast majority of military personnel. But, if it is the case the military personnel cannot, in general handle this kind of training, then it seems the bar has been lowered much to far in the attempt to replenish the ranks, and knew tactics must be employeed to recruit the men and women capable of defending this country. Again, a reflection on the upper command who instituted such a policy that allows such recruitment.

Last edited by Jamie J. Skibicki; 08-13-2008 at 07:43 AM.. Reason: Forgot to finish a thought, damn ADD ac.... damn, another chicken
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:52 AM   #36
Amber Mathwig
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Hey Tim, that's funny, I was actually thinking about you while reading these posts.

From 6 years of experience, the Navy's PT standards kind of suck. It is a very basic and elementary gauge of physical fitness that tends to drive a lot of people to injury in the weeks preceeding the semi-annual fitness test. In line with Crossfit's philosophy, will someone please tell me when and where in my life I will need to crank out 60+ sit-ups (with my feet anchored by my buddy) in two minutes to alleviate a potential catastrophe? The command PT sessions never worked me the way Crossfit does. Additionally, this "culture of fitness" that the Navy has......why are there still so many people in tight uniforms?

Tim was the guy who introduced me to Crossfit. I signed the waiver papers, and then he pushed me way more than I ever would've pushed myself and I loved it. I never thought my body could've handled some of the stuff it did. There were times I was slow as he** and he would patiently wait, smile and encourage. There was one time when I just wasn't physically ready for the workout (bad nutrition choices) and had to call it a day. The thing is, I always had the option to slow down or stop what I was doing because only I can gauge what my body is feeling. Did Minns know this? Or did he push himself beyond his limits?
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:01 PM   #37
Tobias W. Neal
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

So, I saw this and had to post. I have a contract with the Army and train a new 30 every month. As trainers and owners of affiliates we hopefully understand that there exists a mutual responsibility. When my folks come in the first thing they are briefed on is Rhabdo, Passing Out, and throwing up...first two are no go and the last is encouraged...they are also briefed on personal responsibility. I as an attentive trainer am charged with watching and learning my folks and watch when they are going beyond what they should and push them when they are just giving up. At the same time they are grown men and women and are charged to let me know when they are about to pass out, didn't eat well for the day, did something insane before coming etc...As in all sports injuries occur and we must do our best to avoid them but they will and do happen. Coaches are as bad or good as they want to be...a level 1 cert and thats that is not good...on going learning etc...is needed. This article came out and I made an appointment with the leadership to address the importance of proper programming of their soldiers and the risks of Rhabdo. Being upfront and caring for our members goes a long way to keeping things to a minimum...If you have ego as a trainer you better learn to curb it...good quote I heard many years ago...take good care of our clients before they take care of you. Keep training my fellow warriors...we are all doing great work.

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Old 08-13-2008, 01:39 PM   #38
Casey Raiford
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber Mathwig View Post
From 6 years of experience, the Navy's PT standards kind of suck. It is a very basic and elementary gauge of physical fitness that tends to drive a lot of people to injury in the weeks preceeding the semi-annual fitness test. In line with Crossfit's philosophy, will someone please tell me when and where in my life I will need to crank out 60+ sit-ups (with my feet anchored by my buddy) in two minutes to alleviate a potential catastrophe? The command PT sessions never worked me the way Crossfit does. Additionally, this "culture of fitness" that the Navy has......why are there still so many people in tight uniforms?
Agreed. I can say from 20 years' experience (so far) that the Navy PT standards suck. Command PT usually sucks as well, but there are pockets of excellence. We've all seen those folks at one command or another who are good at motivating, know what they're doing and make a realy committment to their people.

Unfortunately what you usually get for PT in the Navy is:

10 minutes of stretching
15 minutes of VERY light calisthenics
30 minutes of jogging
15 more minutes of stretching

Two or three times a week, and volleyball or basketball on Fridays.

That's most fleet and shore commands. NSW, EOD and other specialized communities are different of course.

The main reason for that is that most of the Navy is pretty sedentary and has little to no institutional knowledge of fitness. If you try and whip them into shape much more than that, a lot of them will break. When they break, they go on Limited Duty and affect the command's readiness numbers that are reported up-echelon.

Then there's the safety gestapo. They get twitchy about anything that puts a strain on the lower back. 8 Counts? Nope. The front leaning rest, also known as the plank position, while a great midline stabilization hold, is similarly frowned upon.

There's just a confluence of cultural and organizational pressures that mitigate against real fitness and functional movement. That being said, there are individuals everywhere that get it. At Crossfit Ft Meade we have regulars from the Navy, Army and the Corps. No Airmen or Coasties so far, but it's not a month old yet.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #39
John McBrien
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

One of the coaches at CF Alexandria is a lawyer - I'll have to give him the article and see what he thinks about the case, based on the information we've been given!

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Originally Posted by Casey Raiford View Post
Then there's the safety gestapo. They get twitchy about anything that puts a strain on the lower back. 8 Counts? Nope. The front leaning rest, also known as the plank position, while a great midline stabilization hold, is similarly frowned upon.

There's just a confluence of cultural and organizational pressures that mitigate against real fitness and functional movement.
Casey, what do you think the branches would replace CrossFit with? Or would they simply reinforce PT that consists of what you mentioned above? Didn't the Marine Corps recently switch to a Combat Fitness Test that better parallels CrossFit's "constantly varied, functional movement, executed at high intensity?"

Why ban something that is better preparing service members in general? It just seems counterproductive to me!
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:38 PM   #40
Sean Dunston
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Re: Lawsuit brought against CF affiliate

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I just looked up the case on the county court info system -- it's scheduled for a 2-day jury trial in early October. I may have to sneak out to Manassas and look at the case file ...

One thing that may be of interest is that Virginia is one of the small remaining handful of "contributory negligence" states -- so if the plaintiff was even slightly negligent, he loses. Will be interesting to see if or how that affects this case.
Thanks, John.
As a CF'er and an attorney in NOVA, I think I'll have to take a field trip to court that day. However, I'd actually be QUITE surprised to see this one make it to trial.
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