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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-27-2008, 09:21 PM   #11
Jeff Martin
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Great post back at you Cormac. To many people for whatever reason are trying to pigeon hole CrossFit to the front page WOD and some even further into a purely the metcons, rather than give it it's due. What we do, my son a few others and I is CrossFit. CrossFit Strength Bias vs. say CrossFit Endurance. We use the principles of CF but have a heavy strength bias.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:49 PM   #12
Adam Scheiner
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
We use the principles of CF but have a heavy strength bias.
Heavy metcons still kick the **** out of you metabolically plus there Funnnnnnnnnnnn. Jeff, can I assume you think a strength bias CF is better for people doing Martial Arts.
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:45 AM   #13
Brandon Oto
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

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Originally Posted by Adam Scheiner View Post
I know PM is more about the Oly lifts, but I was just thinking it was similar as far as the layout of
1) Oly lift movement
then:
2)strength movement
then:
3)short metcon

and then the 3rd day (Hybrid) is a strength day.
Here's some basic info: http://www.performancemenu.com/daily...php?show=about wfs
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:52 AM   #14
Adam Scheiner
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

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that just cleared some stuff up for me. Thanks Brandon
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:18 PM   #15
Jeff Martin
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Adam,
That would seem like a very straight forward question let me answer in a very convoluted way. I got my first job coaching in 1979. In all that time I have rarely seen anyone who hasn't been coached do a basic movement like squatting correctly. The past 4.5 years we have been a CF affiliate. We have been to probably 25+ level one certs as attendees, Level2 and Level 3 trainers. My experience is that almost to a person, people working out in their homes have trouble even squatting correctly. So my answer would be stick to the mainsite WOD until your form is flawless and you can do the named WOD's as Rx'd and in a good time. If your a martial artist working out at home, and have suspect fundamentals, doing hill sprints and 225# back squats would be counter productive, and dangerous. Under a competent coach and with a broad metabolic background, its very productive and yes fun.

Regarding programming, you cannot believe how many emails I get from home Crossfitters along the lines of "What do you think of this workout?". You also wouldn't believe how many of those workouts are a mess. They have no rhyme or reason, no elegance, and an obvious misunderstanding of CrossFit principles. Yes the workouts always look hard, most of the time actually really awful. Going to a cert doesn't guarantee that someone will understand how to program or build WOD's wisely but in most cases it certainly would help. Hard doesn't necessarily equate to productive. If you don't have a really clear understanding of what you want to achieve and how to program for it then you should stick with the Main site WOD. Certainly going off line to follow the advice of someone that has never produced great athletes and whose own numbers are marginal seems about as smart as trying to learn the "Death Touch" from a master who got his black belt from the back of a magazine. I would rather get mine from the guy who got his black belt from the back of a bar. There is a chance he will at least know how to fight.

For the past couple of years we have been playing with absurdly heavy WOD's mixed with gymnastics. Example
200 M run
1.75 x bdywt deadlifts
muscle ups
or
40 inch box jumps
bodyweight power cleans
Crazy kind of. But we have a broad metabolic background built on the Mainpage WOD, the heavy WOD's are well within our ability. Always coached, in other words a competent coach is actively involved from building the WOD for a specific purpose all the way through the execution of the WOD looking for form breakdown that might lead to injury.

So my convoluted answer is the mainpage is both safe and proven effective for building both strength and metabolic capacity. People starting out will make the best progress using it. Affiliates starting out should use it. When people, martial artist or otherwise can do the named WOD's with a decent time and sound mechanics, then they should investigate including heavier metcons. But heavier Metcons are still Metcons and are CrossFit Strength.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:07 PM   #16
Dave Taylor
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Jeff,
Well to give you some more back ground, I have been Crossfiting for about 16 months, but doing excusive WOD from the main site for about 10 months, i also throw in CFE workouts to improve my run times. I am in the Army and my boss pretty much lets me have the freedom to run my own PT. I dont have my log infront of me but some times are Fran is about 4.30, Angie, is in the 19 min range, Helen is about 12 min, Like i said before my DL is at 335, my squat is about 250 range, and yesterday i was front squating 155 for the full 10 reps, but only got 165 for 5 reps. I can get full movement on my muslce ups from deadhang to lockout. my press is 135 and Push Jerk is 165. I have to say following the main site has truely improved my fitness more than i would have thought. I am just looking at how to improve my strength, but at the same time i really dont want to lose to much speed in doing it. I am about to start a training cycle and then i will be contrainted on my workout times as i will be working 6-6, 7 days a week, on a range in the sun in full gear. I my not be able to follow the WOD all the time because of this and I was looking to suplement with strength workouts to improve.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:25 PM   #17
Adam Scheiner
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

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Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Adam,
That would seem like a very straight forward question let me answer in a very convoluted way. I got my first job coaching in 1979. In all that time I have rarely seen anyone who hasn't been coached do a basic movement like squatting correctly. The past 4.5 years we have been a CF affiliate. We have been to probably 25+ level one certs as attendees, Level2 and Level 3 trainers. My experience is that almost to a person, people working out in their homes have trouble even squatting correctly. So my answer would be stick to the mainsite WOD until your form is flawless and you can do the named WOD's as Rx'd and in a good time. If your a martial artist working out at home, and have suspect fundamentals, doing hill sprints and 225# back squats would be counter productive, and dangerous. Under a competent coach and with a broad metabolic background, its very productive and yes fun.

Regarding programming, you cannot believe how many emails I get from home Crossfitters along the lines of "What do you think of this workout?". You also wouldn't believe how many of those workouts are a mess. They have no rhyme or reason, no elegance, and an obvious misunderstanding of CrossFit principles. Yes the workouts always look hard, most of the time actually really awful. Going to a cert doesn't guarantee that someone will understand how to program or build WOD's wisely but in most cases it certainly would help. Hard doesn't necessarily equate to productive. If you don't have a really clear understanding of what you want to achieve and how to program for it then you should stick with the Main site WOD. Certainly going off line to follow the advice of someone that has never produced great athletes and whose own numbers are marginal seems about as smart as trying to learn the "Death Touch" from a master who got his black belt from the back of a magazine. I would rather get mine from the guy who got his black belt from the back of a bar. There is a chance he will at least know how to fight.

For the past couple of years we have been playing with absurdly heavy WOD's mixed with gymnastics. Example
200 M run
1.75 x bdywt deadlifts
muscle ups
or
40 inch box jumps
bodyweight power cleans
Crazy kind of. But we have a broad metabolic background built on the Mainpage WOD, the heavy WOD's are well within our ability. Always coached, in other words a competent coach is actively involved from building the WOD for a specific purpose all the way through the execution of the WOD looking for form breakdown that might lead to injury.

So my convoluted answer is the mainpage is both safe and proven effective for building both strength and metabolic capacity. People starting out will make the best progress using it. Affiliates starting out should use it. When people, martial artist or otherwise can do the named WOD's with a decent time and sound mechanics, then they should investigate including heavier metcons. But heavier Metcons are still Metcons and are CrossFit Strength.
Jeff thank you for the response and I am extremely relieved that I have taken your exact route in my fitness and to find we share the same feelings on coaching, but just to make sure I am getting this correct(sometimes it's good to have a little OCD). What you are saying is that a person who has no background in proper mechanics would not benefit (and in all likely hood hurt them self severely)even if they were a martial artist with some kind of training in their discipline. The best route for them would to be learn the proper mechanics until they can do them inebriated and blindfolded. Follow the main site up until they have decent times on the girls(I have a 4:40 Fran would this suffice?) and hero WODs and then and only then they should start to incorporate heavier metcons if they are looking to get serious with their martial art.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:46 PM   #18
Jeff Martin
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Dave,
Thanks for the info. This makes for a much more intelligent discussion.

Adam,
Movement is movement and teaching or learning movement is just that. Teaching a martial art is just teaching someone the most effective way to move to hurt someone. We don't move a white belt on to black belt moves just because the moves are cool. In fact if we did that or recommended that it would be irresponsible right? If we did that either our ego was involved or it should be clear that we are inexperienced and have never really trained anyone. No, we take a white belt and work on fundamentals, then we test him for the next belt. Then what do we do. We review the fundamentals and begin teaching him more advanced moves, all the while reviewing fundamentals.
The same goes for lifting. It is irresponsible to put someone under load if they cannot do the move soundly without a load. Then we want to find if they can do the movement unloaded under stress. Then we load them lightly and look for sound mechanics. Then load them lightly and introduce stress.
You certainly wouldn't load someone heavily with unsafe mechanics and then send their heartrate through the roof. You would be asking for catastrophic failure and injury. Much like taking a white belt, saying here is how you throw a right punch, okay come with me we're going to get in a bar fight now.

So what does your Fran look like at 4:40? Video tape yourself and be your harshest critic.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:32 PM   #19
Dave Taylor
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Dave,

So what does your Fran look like at 4:40? Video tape yourself and be your harshest critic.
I can tell you know with out video taping it. The 1st set is unbroken, the
2nd makes it unbroken most of the time, but by the last i have to break the thrusters up. I have done a scaled with 65 about 4 months ago and i finished in the 2.30 time frame with no breaks. I really try and push myself as much as possable with the higher weight. One of my biggest concentrations is on form and the correct movement and position on the squat. The one time that i did vist an affilate was in GA when i was visting my parents, we did nancy. I took on the whole 95 lbs OHS. It broke me off but i completed all squats to standard. The trainer watched me the whole time and said they were low enough and the activiation of my hips to the activiation of my knee was correct. I guess i am living up to the intensity by push more weight but maybe not as fast. I am much better with BW workouts, but wieght is something i am really trying to improve. I use the workouts from CFE for my speed work on running for improvement on my APFT. Truely i dont care about my score on the APFT but its kind of a point of pride as all the other guys look at me like im crazy when i do PT in the morning.

Does that help anymore for ideas. Oh yea, i am schedualed for a cert in DEC, my unit is paying for it.

To everyone else thanks so much for the info i am working through it now. I have been at the range for the past couple of days setting up for the training unit that is coming in for us to train and my best time to read is at home

Jeff
Great example in why making sure you lift proper also
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:35 PM   #20
Ahmik Jones
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Re: best combo. starting strength and crossfit

This is something we have been toying around with for a while.

We did an experiment last fall trying to find a good mix of Starting Strength and CrossFit. I worked with Lon Kilgore and Mark Rippetoe to come up with the mix during a Basic Barbell certification that they held at our gym.

We initially did this:

__________________________________________________ ______________

Monday

Back Squat 5-5-5
Short high power output CrossFit workout

Tuesday

Press 5-5-5
CrossFit workout

Wednesday

Back Squat 5-5-5
Deadlift 5

Thursday

Heavy CrossFit workout (Something like “Elizabeth” or “Diane”)

Friday

Rest

Saturday

Back Squat 5-5-5
Longer CrossFit workout

Sunday

Rest

__________________________________________________ _______________

Over the 10 weeks we figured out that this was a little too rough and dropped the Saturday squats. We also found that we stopped making gains in the press after a while and began to alternate bench press every other week. Our current program looks like this:

__________________________________________________ _______________

Monday

Back Squat 5-5-5
Short high power output CrossFit workout

Tuesday

Press 5-5-5 alternating each week with Bench Press 5-5-5
CrossFit workout

Wednesday

Back Squat 5-5-5
Deadlift 5

Thursday

Heavy CrossFit workout (Something like “Elizabeth” or “Diane”)

Friday

or

Saturday

Long CrossFit workout

Sunday

Rest

We also just do a normal week of CrossFit every 4th week to rest from powerlifting.

__________________________________________________ ____________

The results have been favorable. Several of our clients got strong enough to do all of the CrossFit workouts as prescribed in just 2 or 3 months versus the 6-12 that it was taking similar people in the past. One of the nice things is that the performance improvements have not been limited to beginners. Some of the biggest improvements have been with people who had been doing CrossFit for a couple of years. Interestingly some of the biggest improvements came in the bodyweight metcon workouts, and one of our clients took 7 minutes off of his Half Marathon time, by cutting his running if half and doing the program from our intervention a few days a week.

I attached the results from our 10 week intervention a year ago. Although we had a lot of people do the intervention, many missed one or more of the assessment days before and after the intervention, so I don't have as large a sample as I would like.

This was the assessment week that we used before and after the intervention.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Monday

“Fran”

Tuesday

For time:
20 inch Box jump, 50 reps
15 foot Rope climb, 5 ascents
Kettlebell swing, 50 reps; 1.5 Pood Men, 1 Pood Women
50 sit-ups
Dumbbell hang power clean, 50 reps; 35 lb Men, 20 lb Women
800 meter Run
50 Back extensions

Wednesday

Seven rounds of:
Clean & Jerk, 1 rep
Rest 5 minutes
Max reps Pull-ups

Thursday

CrossFit Total

Saturday

Tabata push-up
Run 800 meters
Tabata sit-ups
Run 800 meters
Tabata jumping
pull-ups
Run 800 meters

Start the run immediately after the last rest of the Tabata cycle.
Start the next round 6 min from the start of the run.
Record total Tabata score and total run time.

__________________________________________________ ______________

The week after next we are going to try a different experiment.

About 8 guys are going to stop CrossFit and do Starting Strength exclusively for 8 weeks and drink a gallon of milk a day. After that we are going to do 4 weeks the current program as described above while going back on the Zone and then reassess. The rest of our clients will be a control group this time. We did pretty much the same asssessment week this week. One thing I noticed while looking back at this data is that a large number of our clients absolutely crushed their before and after performances from last year, and we have at leat 10 more clients that haven't even been doing this for a whole year who, had they been here a year ago, would have been our best performer on every workout.

Anyway take a look at our results. I am interested in your thoughts. It was not the most scientific experiment in the world and the results are not earth shattering, but I think the combination has promise. It convinced our clients and us enough that we are sticking with the program.
Attached Files
File Type: email Results.xls (118.5 KB, 320 views)

Last edited by Ahmik Jones : 08-28-2008 at 09:48 PM.
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