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Old 04-07-2009, 09:08 AM   #161
Jack Stetson
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post

Rischard Dawkins "The Selfish Gene".
Great book. I highly recommend it as well. Not really any new ideas, but I think it is well written and a pleasure to read.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:08 AM   #162
Henry Miller
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
(speaking of gene mutations) Yes and then are dropped if they dont confer apon the carrier an advantage due to use/necessity.
No they are not. Sometimes they are dropped, but there is a lot of junk that gets passed on. You can only count on a gene being dropped either if it confers upon the carrier a specific DISADVANTAGE, or there is a further mutation of that gene that does confer an advantage.

Most mutations are harmless, and will persist for generations in the children, but don't really spread because there is no advantage. Many helpful mutations are the result of several harmless, but unhelpful mutations that occur in sequence.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:12 AM   #163
Eddie Watts
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

well this thread seems to have diverged from it's original purpose and become about weight gain and 'western' diet, or rather highly processed grains/foods and their relation to weight gain.
i do not believe in the calories in-calories out hypothesis.
i believe it is a useful tool and can be used as a guideline sometimes for some people, at least in general terms.
but the evidence is staggering that it is not the be all and end all of the debate.

according to basal metabolic rate calculators a man of 6 foot height and 30 years of age at 350 pounds needs to consume 2957 calories a day without doing anything at all in terms of exercise.(including getting up)

i have known people who fit this exact metric(height weight and age).
per the calorie counting principle these people should lose weight very easily EVEN on a poor diet(whatever your definition of that is). yet they do not.
(some eat too little, 1600cals, but that should at least cause temporary weight loss)

the theory of cals in cals out relies on one simple premise:
that these 350+pound people overeat to such a degree that not only does their weight remain high but they actually gain even more weight! now unless they actually do not mind being that weight, possible but unlikely, something else must surely be going on?
i've noticed that there are some rather overweight people on these very boards(not going to name anyone, and not a dig, merely an observation) and if you believe that they are constantly and consistently overeating in order for them not to be successful at losing the weight they want to lose(and this must be your belief i think?) then i find that could be dispiriting to those people.

the alternative is that we do not know everything about diet weight loss etc and i find that far more likely than overweight people desperately unhappy about their weight, yet consuming 4000calories a day anyway.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:26 AM   #164
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Eddie Watts View Post
according to basal metabolic rate calculators a man of 6 foot height and 30 years of age at 350 pounds needs to consume 2957 calories a day without doing anything at all in terms of exercise.(including getting up)
IMO, any such calculator is useless unless it considers body fat %. Fat requires no fuel to sustain it, muscle requires a great deal. A person that size with a low bf% probably *would* need a lot of calories. And a person with a high bf% who ate anywhere near that much might in fact gain weight.

And yes, there are people who are desperately unhappy about their weight yet continue to eat substantial quantities of food. The problem (oversimplifying dramatically) is that they are desperately unhappy about lots of things, and food makes them feel better.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-07-2009 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:37 PM   #165
Jim Brikman
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Fat requires no fuel to sustain it, muscle requires a great deal.
Gotta make a correction: both fat and muscle require calories to sustain themselves. The exact numbers are a bit disputed, but according to this article and this one (both w/f/s), muscle burns around 6 calories per pound, while fat burns 2 calories per pound.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:40 PM   #166
Eddie Watts
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

indeed if fat did not burn any fuel then it'd be amusing, imagine a 400 pound man moving around the house burning as many calories as a 105 pound woman!
but i get you're coming from a metabolically active viewpoint
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Old 04-07-2009, 01:08 PM   #167
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Eddie Watts View Post
indeed if fat did not burn any fuel then it'd be amusing, imagine a 400 pound man moving around the house burning as many calories as a 105 pound woman!
but i get you're coming from a metabolically active viewpoint
Actually, Jim's correction notwithstanding, it would be as many as a 105 pound woman carrying a 300 pound pack.

In all seriousness, very big people actually do significant work just moving themselves around. That's why gymnasts usually aren't very big. The 400 pound man will be stronger than the 105 pound woman because he has to be in order to move. Unfortunately, that also means any exercise at all is likely to be exhausting and hunger-inducing.

Katherine
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:07 AM   #168
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
Yes and then are dropped if they dont confer apon the carrier an advantage due to use/necessity.

Rischard Dawkins "The Selfish Gene", pick it up.

And for the love of crap stop making bare unsubstanciated statements and put some substance in your posts so we might have something to discuss.
What unsubstansiated claims would those be? You seem to not understand how inheritance and genes work.The body doesn't pick and choose which genes to pass to other generations. It comes down to random variation. The only way certain genetic traits die out is if the people who possess them are at a serious disadvantage and they die off more often and produce less offspring. Evevntually the gene is "bred out" of the gene pool.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:09 AM   #169
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
It should also be pointed out that the seasonal variation in body fat of most animals is unaffected by calorie intake. If you keep a hibernating animal from eating in caloric surplus before hibernation they still put on the same amount of fat. They take away calories from the working organs instead. The same goes for pregnant women. Its hormonal not calorie induced.

Actually it is affected by caloric intake. Do you have a source to back up any of your assumptions? Hibernating animals keep warm due to BAT, brown adipose tissue.
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Old 04-08-2009, 01:10 AM   #170
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Eddie Watts View Post
well this thread seems to have diverged from it's original purpose and become about weight gain and 'western' diet, or rather highly processed grains/foods and their relation to weight gain.
i do not believe in the calories in-calories out hypothesis.
i believe it is a useful tool and can be used as a guideline sometimes for some people, at least in general terms.
but the evidence is staggering that it is not the be all and end all of the debate.

according to basal metabolic rate calculators a man of 6 foot height and 30 years of age at 350 pounds needs to consume 2957 calories a day without doing anything at all in terms of exercise.(including getting up)

i have known people who fit this exact metric(height weight and age).
per the calorie counting principle these people should lose weight very easily EVEN on a poor diet(whatever your definition of that is). yet they do not.
(some eat too little, 1600cals, but that should at least cause temporary weight loss)

the theory of cals in cals out relies on one simple premise:
that these 350+pound people overeat to such a degree that not only does their weight remain high but they actually gain even more weight! now unless they actually do not mind being that weight, possible but unlikely, something else must surely be going on?
i've noticed that there are some rather overweight people on these very boards(not going to name anyone, and not a dig, merely an observation) and if you believe that they are constantly and consistently overeating in order for them not to be successful at losing the weight they want to lose(and this must be your belief i think?) then i find that could be dispiriting to those people.

the alternative is that we do not know everything about diet weight loss etc and i find that far more likely than overweight people desperately unhappy about their weight, yet consuming 4000calories a day anyway.
No one here is saying that calories in, calories out is the only factor, but it is also not irrelevant.
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