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Old 04-06-2009, 09:14 AM   #111
Jason David
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Scott Clark View Post
You are talking in anecdotes, which is very common for Paleo/nutritional elitists to do. It doesn't matter if you or I personally know someone who became fat eating Paleo or McDonalds as that hardly qualifies as scientific facts. The entire point is that calories, regardless of what foods they come from, will determine weight gain/loss. It doesn't matter if it's Paleo or a #3 from McDonalds, if it puts the individual in a caloric surplus, it will cause weight gain.

No sir...I have overweight people come into my affiliate all of the time. I always go over diet with them. Never has anybody said 'I eat meat, veggies nuts and seeds'. This is a fact.

I'll just try an experiment myself after the regional in May...I'll try to fatten up eating paleo and will let you guys know what happens.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:11 AM   #112
Jack Stetson
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Jason David View Post

I'll just try an experiment myself after the regional in May...I'll try to fatten up eating paleo and will let you guys know what happens.
I was thinking the same thing. Design a 5000 to 6000 Kcal strict Paleo diet and see if I put fat on. See if I could actually eat that much food.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:21 AM   #113
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Jack Stetson View Post
I was thinking the same thing. Design a 5000 to 6000 Kcal strict Paleo diet and see if I put fat on. See if I could actually eat that much food.
The key word in that post is "strict Paleo." If you're eating Paleo plus dairy, it's easy: GOMAD. To do it without dairy, you'd need to eat a lot of fatty meats. Which isn't really Paleo either, since game meats are lean.

I expect the conclusion will be that it's really hard to eat enough food to give yourself a large, ongoing calorie surplus with a Paleo diet. (Which of course ties into the sub-thread about fat storage and genetics.)

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Old 04-06-2009, 10:24 AM   #114
Laura Kurth
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

of course if you ate 6,000 calories of paleo food you would put on weight. Assuming that previously you were eating less and maintaining your weight. And didn't increase your activity.

Do people actually believe that if you added a significant number of calories to your diet in the form of 'paleo' food, you would not gain weight?

Trying to fatten up doing paleo might be quite tough as it has been noted, the caloric excess might be difficult to achieve especially if following cordains 'lean meats' guideline, and/or not having a large appetite.

But if you succeed in creating the caloric excess then of course you will gain weight. If you are training hard and the surplus is not too big, you may be lucky enough to gain a large proportion of it as muscle.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:37 AM   #115
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Scott Clark View Post
The entire point is that calories, regardless of what foods they come from, will determine weight gain/loss.
Go back and review Jim's post. In fact here is a great thread that he started: http://board.CrossFit.com/showthread.php?t=41555 (WFS)
Go read through that when you have some time.

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
The key word in that post is "strict Paleo." If you're eating Paleo plus dairy, it's easy: GOMAD.
You know why dairy helps with mass gain so much? Because the protein in dairy, unlike most dense protein sources (read: animal meat), has a rather potent insulin response as opposed to the typical glucagon response.

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Do people actually believe that if you added a significant number of calories to your diet in the form of 'paleo' food, you would not gain weight?
Yes in fact you can. Do some research. Your body will fight to maintain a healthy BF% under normal hormonal conditions, ie good diet. Your body can shed excess calories in a number of different ways. a) when you eat your body increases it's metabolic rate, how much it increases depends on how much food you eat b) your body will burn excess calories as raw heat c) you experience "restlessness" because your body has extra energy that it wants you to burn d) your body can pass extra food as fecal matter that does not even get absorbed or used in the first place.

If you increased your calorie intake and kept your calorie output exactly the same, then yes you would gain weight. The problem is that the shear act of increasing your caloric intake results in an automatic increase in caloric output whether you want it too or not. This is how someone can increase their intake from 3,000 to 4,000 calories and experience little to no weight gain, if they are eating the right foods.

This is also how hunter gather societies maintained such a healthy BF%. at 15% BF your body can survive for ~30 days without food. There is no evolutionary benefit for going over that BF% because of the diminishing returns you would get from that extra fat storage and the effect it would have on your ability to maneuver and survive in your environment. Plus after 30 days with no food you are pretty much screwed....
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Old 04-06-2009, 11:12 AM   #116
Laura Kurth
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
This is how someone can increase their intake from 3,000 to 4,000 calories and experience little to no weight gain, if they are eating the right foods
Funny how that's never been proven in a controlled study now though, isn't it? I mean, i've heard plenty of stories of this happening, but anecdotal 'evidence' unfortunately means squat.

a slight caloric increase sure, the body may adapt. If this is occuring in an unusual situation (eg metabolic damage from an eating disorder/prolonged dieting without breaks etc) may yield something off like this. An increase from 3,000 to 4,000 in a healthy individual without subsequent increase in activity? i think not.

if a healthy individual on the 'paleo diet' increases their calorie intake by 1/3rd and does not increase activity level... they will gain weight.
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Old 04-06-2009, 11:40 AM   #117
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

In Paleo man, activity levels would have varied seasonally. So would the availability of food. More light in spring and summer would cue the body to be more active during exactly the time when food was most available. Declining light levels in the fall would cue the body to be less active, but with food still readily available (harvest season) it wouldn't be surprising for body fat levels to increase at this time.

Which is a good thing, given the upcoming winter. Bad weather brings still lower activity levels, and decreased availability of food. More successful tribes might have adequate stored food for most years, but an unusually bad winter would make things tough even for them. Body fat levels would tend to decrease, bottoming out in the early spring.

(By activity, I mean both actual moving around and basal metabolic rates. I'm obviously using temperate zone climate cycles.)

Then along comes modern life and kicks all those self-regulating mechanisms in the head. The impact of diet has been discussed ad nauseum, but it's not just diet that has changed. Activity levels are much lower and no longer vary much. Food availability is much greater, and doesn't vary either. Once fat gets stored for any reason, it doesn't go away. Gaining two or three pounds a year is no big deal, except a decade down the line suddenly you're 30 pounds overweight.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-06-2009 at 12:08 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:00 PM   #118
Jim Brikman
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Funny how that's never been proven in a controlled study now though, isn't it? I mean, i've heard plenty of stories of this happening, but anecdotal 'evidence' unfortunately means squat.

a slight caloric increase sure, the body may adapt. If this is occuring in an unusual situation (eg metabolic damage from an eating disorder/prolonged dieting without breaks etc) may yield something off like this. An increase from 3,000 to 4,000 in a healthy individual without subsequent increase in activity? i think not.

if a healthy individual on the 'paleo diet' increases their calorie intake by 1/3rd and does not increase activity level... they will gain weight.
While I don't think an official study of trying to get fat on "paleo" foods has ever been done, I've already posted several studies that show that the amount of weight loss can differ on isocaloric diets if the type of calories is changed. This alone should make you suspicious of a blanket statement like "a caloric surplus must lead to weight gain". However, here are a few more relevant studies:

Quote:
Trans fat leads to weight gain even on same total calories, animal study shows (w/f/s)

This study fed two groups of monkeys the same number of total calories, but one group had a higher proportion of calories coming from trans fats. The result was that the monkeys eating trans fats weighed more, and had more more fat around their abdomens. So this study shows us how you can gain different amounts of weight depending on the type of calories eaten. Were the laws of thermodynamics violated? Of course not. It's just that trans fats reduce the "calories out" portion of our equation - or perhaps normal fats increase it - in a way we couldn't predict from just using a "calories in vs. calories out" equation.
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Researchers Uncover 'Obesity Gene' Involved In Weight Gain Response to High-Fat Diet (w/f/s)

This study examined two groups of mice that were fed the same high-fat diet for 12 weeks. These control group "rapidly gained weight while eating a high-fat diet for 12 weeks." The other group was genetically engineered to lack a gene known as "PKC beta" and the researchers found that "the PKC beta-deficient mice on the same diet gained less weight even while appearing to be extra hungry and eating more calories than the normal mice." So here's an example where we see one group eating more calories than the other, but they end up weighing less, just because of a genetic difference. Perhaps this genetic difference allowed the PKC-beta-defficient group to burn more calories. Or perhaps they simply absorbed less. But if you had just used "calories in - calories out", since neither value can be accurately measured, you would've incorrectly predicted the same weight gain for both groups.
Quote:
Jeff's MAM Experiment (w/f/s)

A guy on this messageboard did an experiment where he upped his daily caloric intake of ~2200 to well over 4000 for 30 days. However, he made sure to eat virtually no carbs and to get most of his calories from dietary fat. I believe he kept his physical activity the same. If we had simply applied "calories in - calories out = weight change" we would have expected him to be ~14lbs heavier at the end of the month. In reality, his weight didn't change at all.

To be clear, this is NOT an official experiment and in that respect, it's possible that it's a bunch of rubbish. However, if it's true, then it should save time for those of you who were going to experimentally try to fatten up on a paleo diet. Again, if Jeff is telling the truth, it doesn't mean the laws of thermodynamics were violated. Perhaps his body temperature increased on the ketogenic diet (like the mice study I posted earlier) to burn more calories. Perhaps he peed out a lot of calories as ketone bodies. Perhaps his body didn't absorb a lot of the extra calories and he excreted them, unprocessed, in his fecal matter.
I think all the above once again show that "calories in - calories out = weight change" is very difficult to apply since we never accurately know the values involved. There is just no guarantee that the "excess" calories we eat will get turned into body mass (fat/muscle) - numerous factors control where those calories go, including genetics, hormones, the type of calories, and so on.

Last edited by Jim Brikman : 04-06-2009 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:13 PM   #119
Gerhard Lavin
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Funny how that's never been proven in a controlled study now though, isn't it? I mean, i've heard plenty of stories of this happening, but anecdotal 'evidence' unfortunately means squat.

a slight caloric increase sure, the body may adapt. If this is occuring in an unusual situation (eg metabolic damage from an eating disorder/prolonged dieting without breaks etc) may yield something off like this. An increase from 3,000 to 4,000 in a healthy individual without subsequent increase in activity? i think not.

if a healthy individual on the 'paleo diet' increases their calorie intake by 1/3rd and does not increase activity level... they will gain weight.
Totally agree Laura. Even Eades has given up pretending calories don't matter. (WFS)
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Old 04-06-2009, 12:24 PM   #120
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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But it wasnt/is not used in hunter gatherer societies Katherine, which is the period we evolved. So the gene could not have arose because it had no use in hunter gatherer societies because they didnt/dont store large amounts of fat. So the gene would have been mute. I dont mean to sound condescending but i dont think you understand how genes are selected.
You do realize that even unsustainably thin people have 4-5% bf, right? And typical healthy males have 15%? For a 150 pound person, 15% is more than 20 pounds of stored fat.

So you're saying that a person who routinely carries around 20 pounds of stored fat is somehow genetically incapable of storing an additional 5 or 10 pounds given the right environmental stimulus. (It takes more than that to be obese, of course, but even obese people only gain a few pounds at a time.)

And I'm the one who doesn't understand genetics? Okay...

Katherine
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