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Old 07-05-2008, 09:30 AM   #41
Celio Silva
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Benjamin Walsh View Post
This is an ignorant statement. You are either being provacative or you have no idea what you are talking about. Watch this Saitiev Highlight or one of these John Smith world championship finals matches: one two. Do you think those movements are improvised? Every situation, movement and combination of movements has been trained thousands of times.

Frankly, even the disctinction between wrestling and grappling is specious. Grappling IS a form of wrestling. There are hundreds of wrestling styles practiced throughout the world including BJJ, and Judo. BJJ focuses on submissions. Judo rewards throws, submissions and control. Greco Roman is about upper body throws. Freestyle rewards all manner of take downs. In Sumo and Mongolian wrestling, making the oponent touch the ground with certain body parts brings victory. In some parts of Mongolia leg kicks are allowed. If you like grappling more than other forms of wrestling that's fine, but suggesting one style has more technique than others is just silly.

The number 1 ranked freestyle wrestler at 55 kilograms is Bayaraa Naranbaatar, from mongolia. He grew up with this style. He has adapted just fine.

Just for kicks, here is a Randy Couture losing in the finals of the 1990 world quialifier. He has incredible conditioning, but falls victim to a very big throw.

Brock Lesnar, as far as I know, never wrestled internationally. Steven Neal, who beat Lesner 3-2 in the 1999 NCAA finals, and now plays guard for the New England Patriots, was also world champion in 1999. Neal coasts with the lead vs. Lesnar, but is obviously the more gifted and more skilled (if less muscular) athlete. Lesnar never gets close to taking Neal down.

Here is where I agree with you: If you watch this video of Lesnar in the 2000 NCAA final you will see that although he wins, he is not very fast or flexible, his conditioning is only good enough to work at a ponderous pace, he shows little offense on his feet. He gets called for stalling twice and could have been penalized again in overtime! He is, however, very, very big. If you compare Lesnar's wrestling to Couture's, it is easy to imagine Lesnar not flourishing quickly, if at all, in MMA. Frankie Edgar's wrestling, while fairly dominant in the UFC, is clearly primitive compared to greats like Saitiev or Smith. Somewhere in the middle is Randy Couture, an elite wrestler, but never a contender for a world championship. Lesnar, although he was more successful than Edgar in college, wrestled at an easier weight class in which his size was a huge advantage. Take down defense, his strength, is not going to win Lesnar a fight against a top guy. If you were to say that Lesnar's technique is not on par with a top grappler's, I would agree. Lesnar is NOT a bigger version of Couture.

All links WFS. Just Wrestling.
I am not the provocative kind so that's definately not the case. Neither am I ignorant of the skills that goes into wrestling. EVERY sport require skills. What I said is that wrestling is mostly athleticism, and I stand by my statement. I do not believe that wrestling and grappling are the same thing by any means. Wrestling is body control and positioning, and while that is obviously an aspect of grappling, it is only half of the equation. This dosen't make it inferior to grappling, just different.

I actually think that in some ways wrestling is harder. I can easily teach anyone an armlock. The balance, coordination, and agility required in wrestling, however, come to some people naturally while others lack it. So naturally athletic people will have natural wrestling skills, that can then be greatly enhanced by learning technique. Just look at George Saint Pierre, outwrestling top-of-the-food-chain wrestlers even though he is MUCH less experienced in wrestling.
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Old 07-05-2008, 10:42 AM   #42
Shane Rapp
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Lesnar should be more successful than Kimbo because a) he does have a lot of grappling experience compared to most HW's and b) his level for athleticism for a HW is unquestionable, c) he is large, even for a HW. Does that mean he'll be world champ? Nope. But even if he had a black belt in BJJ, that doesn't mean he'd automatically be successful in MMA (just as some other black belts haven't been).

The biggest factor in having successs in MMA, as we've seen time and time again, is how well the person is able to adapt their previous specialty to an MMA setting. Randy was a very good at greco and he learned how to adapt it to MMA. Big Nog is very good at BJJ and he's adapted it to MMA. There have been world class wrestlers (can't think of their names right now but I'm sure the wrestlers know) and world class BJJ guys (like Pe de Pano) who haven't been succcessful because they had trouble adapting. Then there's guys like BJ Penn and GSP who seem like they can just do everything.

The big question to me is if Brock will be just a GnP guy like Mark Coleman or if he'll adapt his game and try to be more well-rounded like Koscheck and Melendez seem to be doing.
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Old 07-05-2008, 12:17 PM   #43
Brandon Oto
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Another question is if Lesnar could get through the drug screening.
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:59 PM   #44
Shane Rapp
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
Another question is if Lesnar could get through the drug screening.
He already has. Just like he did in college and the NFL (if he was tested in the NFL). Whatever he's using he knows how to get clean when he needs to. We'll see how that goes with the stricter standards the NSAC is supposed to be bringing in.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:27 PM   #45
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Celio Silva View Post
I am not the provocative kind so that's definately not the case. Neither am I ignorant of the skills that goes into wrestling. EVERY sport require skills. What I said is that wrestling is mostly athleticism, and I stand by my statement. I do not believe that wrestling and grappling are the same thing by any means. Wrestling is body control and positioning, and while that is obviously an aspect of grappling, it is only half of the equation. This dosen't make it inferior to grappling, just different.

I actually think that in some ways wrestling is harder. I can easily teach anyone an armlock. The balance, coordination, and agility required in wrestling, however, come to some people naturally while others lack it. So naturally athletic people will have natural wrestling skills, that can then be greatly enhanced by learning technique. Just look at George Saint Pierre, outwrestling top-of-the-food-chain wrestlers even though he is MUCH less experienced in wrestling.
GSP is a phenom and trains with some of Canada's best wrestlers.
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:22 PM   #46
George Heckert
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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I love TIm Slyvia, but he's not even a serious contender anymore and he was champ for a couple years. He got lucky to be champ in a time in which he had very weak competition.
Did you see Sylvia's fight with Noguiera? He was dominating the entire fight until he got caught in that submission. I'm not saying Sylvia is the best, but he is still ranked in the top five for Heavyweights for a reasonhttp://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings...3325&my_page=2(WFS).

Also, has there been strong competition at Heavyweight in the UFC in the past 5-8 years? Probably the weakest division in the sport.

Last edited by George Heckert : 07-06-2008 at 03:28 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:36 PM   #47
Phillip Garrison
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

The competition is alot stronger than it used to be. But look at Sylvia vs Couture, Randy utterly dominated a much younger,bigger, stronger opponent.
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Old 07-07-2008, 12:50 PM   #48
Shane Rapp
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

I just can't respect Sylvia. I used to think he was pretty good (back in the steroid days). But considering the height and weight advantage he has on his opponents he should fight better than he has in recent years.
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Old 07-07-2008, 07:55 PM   #49
George Heckert
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
The competition is alot stronger than it used to be. But look at Sylvia vs Couture, Randy utterly dominated a much younger,bigger, stronger opponent.
Yeah but Randy always does that when he's not supposed to! He did the same thing to Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz. That said, I feel that I have to clarify that I am not a Tim Sylvia fan. Fedor will probably beat him in the first round. Fedor is the best Heavyweight of all time period.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:09 PM   #50
James Forbes
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Pass the word around to the powers that be. I'll sign up to be Kimbo's next opponent in the cage.:stir:
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