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Old 06-01-2011, 09:53 AM   #101
Michael Dowling
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Veronica Carpenter View Post
If you are a collegiate athlete (and I'll guess pro athletes as well) your strength program will most likely include power cleans for training explosive power.

Define "Lifters"
when i say "lifters" i'm talking about anyone who lifts weights regularly to aid in strength gain, majority of lifters would include, novice, beginner, and probably intermediate lifters. advanced and elite lifters are outside the majority and not who i'm talking about here.

i've already conceded that D1 athletes, pro-athletes, olympic lifters etc... will reap a lot of benefits from power cleans. but IMO the novice lifter (majority includes the novice lifters IMO) will not reap much of a benefit as they can't lift heavy enough to really do anything effective for them, and in all honesty will probably never get there do to certain limitations be it age, mobility, previous injury etc...

in CF they PC's in WOD's with a little bit of weight, but i've seen guys who have done these for years and their power clean is still very weak, other than some conditioning they got really nothing out of it, and because the movement is more complicated was the cost/benefit worth it?
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:00 AM   #102
Eric Montgomery
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
when i say "lifters" i'm talking about anyone who lifts weights regularly to aid in strength gain, majority of lifters would include, novice, beginner, and probably intermediate lifters. advanced and elite lifters are outside the majority and not who i'm talking about here.

i've already conceded that D1 athletes, pro-athletes, olympic lifters etc... will reap a lot of benefits from power cleans. but IMO the novice lifter (majority includes the novice lifters IMO) will not reap much of a benefit as they can't lift heavy enough to really do anything effective for them, and in all honesty will probably never get there do to certain limitations be it age, mobility, previous injury etc...

in CF they PC's in WOD's with a little bit of weight, but i've seen guys who have done these for years and their power clean is still very weak, other than some conditioning they got really nothing out of it, and because the movement is more complicated was the cost/benefit worth it?
That's the fault of poor coaching and poor programming, not an indictment of power cleans. Would you say the same thing about guys who have been CFing for years and can fly through some tabata air squats yet can barely squat bodyweight? Does that mean the squat isn't useful or worth the effort to learn?
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:07 AM   #103
Veronica Carpenter
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
when i say "lifters" i'm talking about anyone who lifts weights regularly to aid in strength gain, majority of lifters would include, novice, beginner, and probably intermediate lifters.

IMO the novice lifter (majority includes the novice lifters IMO) will not reap much of a benefit as they can't lift heavy enough to really do anything effective for them, and in all honesty will probably never get there do to certain limitations be it age, mobility, previous injury etc...

in CF they PC's in WOD's with a little bit of weight, but i've seen guys who have done these for years and their power clean is still very weak, other than some conditioning they got really nothing out of it, and because the movement is more complicated was the cost/benefit worth it?
That all depends on the coaching. From my experience at our local box, many can actually power clean quite a bit, but can't squat clean because of limited technique.

IMO, mobility and previous injury can be a factor, but mobility/flexibility can be improve upon. IMO age is not a factor. Strength may be limited by age and decreased muscle mass, but even a 70yo can learn to power clean efficiently and regain a good amount of strength.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:21 AM   #104
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
i've already conceded that D1 athletes, pro-athletes, olympic lifters etc... will reap a lot of benefits from power cleans. but IMO the novice lifter (majority includes the novice lifters IMO) will not reap much of a benefit as they can't lift heavy enough to really do anything effective for them, and in all honesty will probably never get there do to certain limitations be it age, mobility, previous injury etc...
A 65# power clean is actually quite a bit of weight for a female with no previous lifting experience. The world record clean and jerk for my age group and weight class is only 77.5 kg. So I think it's really tough to say that any particular weight is "too light" to be useful for some fraction of the population.

You continue to insist that the power clean is not useful for building strength, though several people have pointed out that it is a power movement, and is not really intended as a pure strength exercise. Or are you claiming that explosiveness is "not useful" for novices?

If you're willing, at the ripe old age of 34, to declare that you will "never" get to a heavy enough power clean to be "useful", that's fine. It's your life. But that doesn't mean that your experience has any relevance to people who do not choose to limit themselves in that way, or to a "majority."

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 06-01-2011 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:07 AM   #105
Michael Dowling
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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You continue to insist that the power clean is not useful for building strength
not what i'm saying at all, it's about context, i don't want to go through and rehash everything i've written, but it isn't this.

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Or are you claiming that explosiveness is "not useful" for novices?
again not what i'm saying at all. explosiveness i'm sure is great for novices, but training with very light weight on a PC isn't going to go far towards that end.

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. But that doesn't mean that your experience has any relevance to people who do not choose to limit themselves in that way, or to a "majority."
never intended to, people can do their 50/100 lb power cleans until they're blue in the face i couldn't care less what people do in the gym... doesn't change the fact that training for power and explosiveness with little resistance on a power clean is pointless IMO. i don't think you will see much benefit in power and explosiveness until you get to that true 3rm 5 rm on a linear progression sweet spot (this is where i think the majority of lifters have been unable to really get to), maybe i'm wrong.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:18 AM   #106
Lincoln Brigham
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

So get your technique together and scale up.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:19 AM   #107
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
i don't think you will see much benefit in power and explosiveness until you get to that true 3rm 5 rm on a linear progression sweet spot (this is where i think the majority of lifters have been unable to really get to), maybe i'm wrong.
I think you're blaming the exercise for something that is really a coaching and/or programming issue. If someone is unable to power clean a "useful" weight -- for whatever definition of "useful" you want to use -- then they should fix whatever problems are holding them back. Certainly there's nothing inherent in the power clean that makes it impossible for novices to reach "useful" weights.

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Old 06-01-2011, 12:23 PM   #108
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

Damn, I didn't realize I needed a BW Power Clean for it to be impressive. I don't think I can clean 300 pounds! Now 250 I can do.
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:10 PM   #109
Chris Walls
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

It comes down to being honest with where you are at with a given lift. If you only have a 125lbs squat, would you think that's too light to be useful so it's not worth doing? Not when you could leg press 350?

I'm going to go ahead and guess no on that one... because you build it up over time.

If all you can manage safely, pain free, and with decent form is 50, 100, 150, 200, 300, 600lbs... who cares? Where you're at is where you're at. Time to check the ego and take your medicine.

Or you could just quit doing that lift... either way it doesn't change anything for me. I still do what I can do, push my limits, and work harder at the things I suck at than those I'm good at. (and even those I'm not THAT good at...)

I mean my 80kg snatch and 106kg C+J is pretty pathetic compared to the guys at Cal Strength... does it mean I'm wasting my time doing it? Hell no.
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #110
Tamara Cohen
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Re: are power cleans useful for the majority of lifters?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
in CF they PC's in WOD's with a little bit of weight, but i've seen guys who have done these for years and their power clean is still very weak, other than some conditioning they got really nothing out of it, and because the movement is more complicated was the cost/benefit worth it?
Well, I don't consider this lifting.

I consider it conditioning.

And, I don't expect that it would make anyone's power clean better, which is why I don't do it anymore and why I don't program it for anyone else.
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