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Old 04-01-2009, 03:33 PM   #11
Skylar Cook
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Another good paper:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6823/5/10 (wfs)

As has been said, nothing's been "proven," but there's plenty of evidence derived from reasoning. I'm sure I'm not the only one on this board with a ridiculous number of links to papers on the subject... Most if it is believed to stem from lectins and other toxins or "antinutrients" present in higher amounts in grains/legumes/seeds.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:47 AM   #12
Jack Stetson
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Skylar,

I'm with you when it comes to the rationale. But there just isn't anything definative. And then people make valid but seemingly contradictory observations like Scott does:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Clark View Post
Many people experience exceptional health on a high grain diet. Many people experience exceptional health on a grain free diet.
Not everyone on a 'Western Diet' develops 'Western Diseases.' I think the best we can say is that a 'Western diet' is a risk factor for 'Western diseases.'

I've come to the conclusion that Homo sapiens is one tough critter: you can stuff it with twinkies, nitrate laden hot dogs, cigarette smoke, and cheap Vodka and it will still live 75 years while spawning 12 offspring in spite of you. Hell, that's almost as good as a cockroach.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:12 PM   #13
Scott Clark
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Jack Stetson View Post
Not everyone on a 'Western Diet' develops 'Western Diseases.' I think the best we can say is that a 'Western diet' is a risk factor for 'Western diseases.'

I've come to the conclusion that Homo sapiens is one tough critter: you can stuff it with twinkies, nitrate laden hot dogs, cigarette smoke, and cheap Vodka and it will still live 75 years while spawning 12 offspring in spite of you. Hell, that's almost as good as a cockroach.
I agree with that. I wasn't even talking in context of a Western Diet, speaking to the alleged role that grains play in the development of Western diseases. My personal belief is that activity and maintaining a healthy weight play the biggest role in fending off Western diseases, not the inclusion/exclusion of grains.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:13 PM   #14
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stetson View Post
I've come to the conclusion that Homo sapiens is one tough critter: you can stuff it with twinkies, nitrate laden hot dogs, cigarette smoke, and cheap Vodka and it will still live 75 years while spawning 12 offspring in spite of you. Hell, that's almost as good as a cockroach.
That is only possible with modern medicine though.

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Originally Posted by Scott Clark View Post
I agree with that. I wasn't even talking in context of a Western Diet, speaking to the alleged role that grains play in the development of Western diseases. My personal belief is that activity and maintaining a healthy weight play the biggest role in fending off Western diseases, not the inclusion/exclusion of grains.
The problem is that maintaining a healthy body fat is darn near impossible if your diet is not locked in. I know you mentioned before that there are people that "eat high grain high carb diets and are very healthy". I would like to see these people. I would be very interested to see their blood work and to actually determine how healthy they are. There is genetic variability in our ability to tolerate grains, but the do effect us all to some degree or another.

Just because there is not a unified perfect definition of what is "healthy nutrition" does not mean that we can just throw it all to the wind and say, "well exercise is more important anyways". Especially since we are trying to optimize health and preformance. There are lots of things that won't necessarily kill you, but are they optimal??
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:29 PM   #15
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
The problem is that maintaining a healthy body fat is darn near impossible if your diet is not locked in. I know you mentioned before that there are people that "eat high grain high carb diets and are very healthy". I would like to see these people. I would be very interested to see their blood work and to actually determine how healthy they are. There is genetic variability in our ability to tolerate grains, but the do effect us all to some degree or another.
Haven't we been here before?

The traditional Okinawan diet is about 72% carbs by weight, with about seven servings of vegetables and seven more of grain-based products (noodles, rice, etc.) per day. And since the Okinawans have the longest lifespans and the lowest rate of geriatric diseases in the world, I don't have to see their blood work to know they're pretty healthy.

For that matter, my own diet isn't particularly "locked in" by the standards of this board. I don't eat much processed food, but I eat all the pasta and rice I want, and my doctor is still pretty happy with my blood work and lack of body fat.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-02-2009 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:59 PM   #16
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
The traditional Okinawan diet is about 72% carbs by weight, with about seven servings of vegetables and seven more of grain-based products (noodles, rice, etc.) per day. And since the Okinawans have the longest lifespans and the lowest rate of geriatric diseases in the world, I don't have to see their blood work to know they're pretty healthy.

For that matter, my own diet isn't particularly "locked in" by the standards of this board. I don't eat much processed food, but I eat all the pasta and rice I want, and my doctor is still pretty happy with my blood work and lack of body fat.
Where are you getting your information on Okinawan diet and health? I would love to check it out.
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:18 PM   #17
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Where are you getting your information on Okinawan diet and health? I would love to check it out.
The Okinawan Centenarian study documents how healthy Okinawans are well into old age. There's a summary at http://www.okicent.org/study.html and a long list of publications at http://www.okicent.org/publications.html

(All links safe.)

Katherine
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:33 PM   #18
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
The Okinawan Centenarian study documents how healthy Okinawans are well into old age. There's a summary at http://www.okicent.org/study.html and a long list of publications at http://www.okicent.org/publications.html

(All links safe.)

Katherine
I see lots of stuff about how they eat caloric restricted diets as a part of their culture. This has been established to improve life span and has nothing to do with what actually makes up the contents of their diet. I would bet their diet is gluten free or close to it and contains less grains that you think.

On the other hand here is a culture that had nothing but grains to survive on and yet their health was incredibly poor. http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/u...ancient-egypt/ (WFS)
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:38 PM   #19
Ed Haywood
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

The Abkhazians are another people known for longevity. Their diet is heavy in yogurt, lamb, grapes, and cereals. By "cereals" I don't mean Captain Crunch, I mean big steaming bowls of porridge.

I think many hard core anti-grain advocates fail to make the distinction between highly processed grains eaten to excess, and healthy grains eaten in moderate amounts. If every meal is 50% potatoes, white rice with gravy, or white bread, yeah you're going to have problems because most of that stuff might as well be sugar.

But that doesn't mean that whole grain bread, bran cereal, or oatmeal are bad for you. In moderation, they are no worse than any other food. There is nothing inherently wrong with a sandwich, and if you think that people are somehow harming themselves by eating a turkey sandwich with whole grain bread and low fat mayo, then IMO you're buying into a fringe theory with very little proof. You can do that if you want, but there's really no science for you to beat your co-workers over the head with.

Doctors routinely prescribe diets high in soluble fiber (oats) for people with heart disease. They don't do this because they are stupid or malevolent. They do it because the preponderance of medical evidence supports that diet as a corrective measure.
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:48 PM   #20
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
I see lots of stuff about how they eat caloric restricted diets as a part of their culture. This has been established to improve life span and has nothing to do with what actually makes up the contents of their diet. I would bet their diet is gluten free or close to it and contains less grains that you think.
Several of the papers address the content of the diet. I don't have time to dig up links, but it's very high in low-glycemic carbs, with sweet potatoes as a staple. Most of the high-GI carbs are from rice, which of course contains no gluten. Soy is a major protein source, as is fish. Very little red meat.

Anyway, you wanted to see healthy people on high carb diets. You'll find them in Okinawa.

Katherine
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