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Old 04-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #51
Caleb Thomas
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

I think everything he said is exactly what's needed to move Crossfit forward. I really can't see where all the negative feedback came from? Did your feelings get hurt? How does constructive criticism cause negative feedback like that?
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:39 PM   #52
Robert Pierce
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikki Lee Martin View Post
Mr Callahan,

Armchair critics are easy to find. There is a great deal of difference between posing a question, commentary or suggestion and being rude and disrespectful to people who volunteered their time, heart and expertise.

Most of your assumptions are insulting and much of your "information" is inaccurate.
I'm no competitor, just an avid solo CFer and an occasional poster, but I find nothing insulting in Matt's comments. In fact, he seems to have kept his head pretty well here.

Good original post and discussion.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:00 PM   #53
Celio Silva
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Adam Stevenson View Post
Lurene, are you arguing then, that this current method is fair to all competitors? Even if competing organizers knew what equipment/venue was needed, that is still an advantage over other competitors.

It is my opinion that Matt has started this thread for a very specific reason:
To resolve apparent issues that could potentially negate the credibility of CrossFit, the CrossFit Games, and the competitors in those games.
If we dont fix this now, then the same accusations will occur in the years to come. If we claim someone is the fittest man/woman in the world, then we better have all of our ducks in a row, and be able to eliminate all arguments to the contrary.

We as the CrossFit Community should be the ones resolving these issues.
If an "outsider" were to look at this current method of organizer/competitor, they would naturally question this process.
Why shouldn't we fix this in house, so it doesn't happen in the future?


Plain & simple.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:40 PM   #54
Damon Stewart
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Matt Callahan View Post
I want to reiterate that I'm concerned with the appearance of impropriety to the community and am not saying that the top athletes wouldn't win at any CrossFit competition (which having seen and read about their performance I know they are among the fittest people on the planet!).

Something obvious was the Great Basin region's website:

"5. Who's organizing this? The wise folks at CrossFit HQ have appointed Chris Spealler from CrossFit Park City, Damon Stewart from Wasatch CrossFit, Alisha Kowalewski from CrossFit Phoenix, and Lisa Ray from CrossFit Flagstaff to put this on"

As I mentioned in the post, I fully believe it is possible for the event to have been planned without giving an advantage to any competitor - but I wouldn't expect someone who wins all the events to be listed as the coordinator.

The Southern California region involves more the use of certain competitors as subjects to plan events for the competition. When the process involves creation of the workouts by the coordinators, inevitably a consideration of direct experience will be a factor. This could in turn be a good or bad result for the people closest to the coordinators. Either way the problem is easily avoided by having the workout planners not be involved with the competitors.
..........
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Last edited by Lynne Pitts; 04-24-2009 at 06:51 AM.. Reason: AUP VIOLATION
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:20 PM   #55
Andrew Gray
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Ok, so moving on from all the drama I want to throw in some of my thoughts on the qualifiers. I was one of the judges so I'm going to focus a bit on that aspect.

First off I want to say a huge thank you to all the other judges, volunteers and organizers, it was a great weekend, I had a blast! Also thank you to all the athletes, there was a great atmosphere of good sportsmanship and they made it a pleasure to be a judge (I've refed in other sports where it's quite the opposite).

So there are a ton of explinations and such I would love to write here but I just don't have the time to so I'm going to try and just spit out some of the key points.

1. None of us were professional judges, we were all just volunteers trying to help out.

2. Due to point 1, standards were selected and enfourced with the primary focus being ease of judging.

3. Considering point 1, I think point 2 was somewhat necessary, however, if we are to improve we need to move away from this.

4. I feel it should not be the athlete's job to make life easy on the judges, the athlete's job is to perform the movements to the required standard and nothing more. They should not be asked to over-emphasize or aim above the line to make it easier for the judge.

5. We shouldn't be forced to dumb down or change movements in order to make it easier to judge (box step-ups, no bouncing off the top).

6. In order to make points 4 and 5 realistic I think we need to start working towards getting people trained specifically as judges. I'm not exactly sure how we go about doing that, but I think these competitions and our community is getting big enough that it's something we can start working towards now.

So those are my quick points on judging, I have quite a few more but I think those are the key things and what we need to work on. As amateur judges I think the main cause of issues for us was that we were so afraid of letting athlete's cheat a rep that we ended up not counting a fair number of perfectly good reps. By asking athlete's to over-emphasize movements it ended up getting to the point where on the rare occasion the athlete didn't over-emphasize and did just enough to meet the standard it felt like a miss. I know a couple occasions were I was certain an athlete I was judging had met the standards but someone behind me told me I couldn't count the rep because it wasn't obvious enough. I guess this raises the question, which is worse - counting a near miss or not counting a good rep?
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:34 PM   #56
Joe Cavazos
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Damon Stewart View Post
........
First off, chill.

Second, imagine you're managing the final basketball game at the 2012 Olympics between the U.S. and, I don't know, Argentina. You get to select the referees for the game. There's a generous pool of capable referees from many different countries. Would you select 3 referees from Argentina? What about 3 referees from the U.S.? Why or why not?

Third, chill.

Quote:
This is your 7th post, nice job establishing yourself in our community.
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Last edited by Lynne Pitts; 04-24-2009 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:46 PM   #57
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post
Second, imagine you're managing the final basketball game at the 2012 Olympics between the U.S. and, I don't know, Argentina. You get to select the referees for the game. There's a generous pool of capable referees from many different countries. Would you select 3 referees from Argentina? What about 3 referees from the U.S.? Why or why not?
Are you sure you want to use Olympic judging as your gold standard? Seems to me there've been some pretty iffy situations over the years, including outright bribery of "capable" referees from "neutral" countries.

In your example, I'd choose a US ref, an Argentine ref, and a ref from a neutral country acceptable to both of the other two.

Katherine
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:49 PM   #58
Adam Stevenson
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Damon you have 362 posts, and you just established yourself as a name caller.
Whoa back Damon.
Again, THIS ISN'T ABOUT SPEAL. No one thinks that Speal would put himself in that situation. Matt said nothing about Speal or anyone else cheating.
You obviously haven't read this entire thread, and if you have, you have missed the point.
The problem is that it looks bad to outside observers. There are obviously people on this thread who agree with this and want it fixed.
You sound like you have a relationship with Lisa and Speal, so wouldn't you want to eliminate the possibility for people to make these accusations?

As you obviously know, these were the first Qualifiers, and guess what? There's gonna be **** that needs fixin'!!!
This is how that happens; open public forums for people to discuss discrepancies and find solutions. Not call people names.

By adding your negative post to this thread, you have done nothing to further the credibility of this process. This is obviously something that needs to be addressed/fixed.

Moving on to another important addressed issue; the standing Butt Wink during the overhead squat.
As the infamous Matt stated, it was a requirement that the competitors, after standing to full extension, had to move the the hips under the shoulders. This requires that most people lose the good back angle and posture that is enforced with the majority of exercises requiring the use of the lower back. No where has it ever been stated that the finishing position of the overhead squat is hips under the shoulders. It is at full extension (arms and legs) the bar being over the center of gravity, or the laces of the shoe.
The competitors were being told to exaggerate this "hip thrust" losing the lower lumbar curve; essentially no bend at the waist regardless of wether or not they were at full extension.
The same rules were applied to the box jump, which is why you see Tosh in his video do box step ups and not jumps.

Does anyone else have any concerns with this, or this just going to be a defend Speal thread?
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Last edited by Adam Stevenson; 04-22-2009 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:03 PM   #59
Celio Silva
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Great post Andrew, that's what this thread and community are all about. Thank you.

Damon, Matt posted an OUTSTANDING thread. His criticism was thoughtful, well-articulated, POSITIVE, and obviously genuinely aimed at providing feedback for the organizers. He analyzed the ENTIRE event and brought forth VERY valid points.

Matts' post did a great job making sure he not only acknowledged the good things the event offered but also praised the organizers for putting together such an event.

I understand you may have felt a personal stab when reading your name. However, never did Matt made any acusations whatsoever. He addressed the obvious problem of the "appearance of impropriety", something you can't deny. I am confident that there was no impropriety, as I am sure is the community at large, which is even more of a reason to ensure that there is no "appearance of [it]".


If you are going to be involved with the games and represent not only the CF community but its leadership you must be able to POSITIVELY handle POSITIVE criticism. Your post, albeit a probable knee-jerk reaction, was a far cry from that.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:07 PM   #60
Celio Silva
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Great post Adam. I was writing while you posted.

Good job maintaining the safety concern over the OHS alive.
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