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Old 03-27-2009, 05:11 PM   #121
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Natural Movements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibreel Freeland View Post
Using the strongman analogy of why weights are imperative for maximal muscle and strength development, can you tell me what gym these chimpanzees (98.76% identical to us in genetic makeup) are lifting at?
What do chimps have to do with anything? Despite the genetic similarity, their proportions and therefore their biomechanics are completely different from ours.

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Old 03-27-2009, 06:06 PM   #122
Robert Callahan
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Jibreel Freeland View Post
Ryan-

I am not a fan of back squats for the reasons you listed. Dead lifts I like. I think that there are definitely some ways to improve my use of time in the weight room so that it has more transferability to real world applications that may arise.

Front squats I like but I do not do them ATG because I have injuries. Also I am not of the opinion that the human body was designed to do eccentric contractions with heavy weights taking hinge joints past 90 degrees and using the human body as a fulcrum. We evolved in situations where at all costs we use any mechanical advantage we can get.

Training deep negative portions of reps does not transfer over to maximal weight lifting strength. There's a reason all the records for the most weight ever lifted are only for partial movements like rack pulls and partial squats. To train for maximal contraction it is necessary to utilize the mechanical leverage advantage of keeping the knees and lower back at the furthest outside of 90 degree angles as possible, preferable more like 120. This minimizes injury, and maximizes pounds lifted.

I think it puts excessive and unnatural loads on the ligaments and tendons to do slow eccentric weight baring contractions. To date not one person has given me an example of a real world situation where one would do deep squats for reps with a big weight. Walking up stairs or box step ups uses all the same muscles but does not have an accentuated negative or eccentric phase of the reps. When stepping up onto the box, most of the weight is on the leg on the floor. Then as the weight is transferred to the leg up on the box, there is a deep portion of the rep, but the stress levels placed on that leg are negated by eschewing the negative portion of the rep due to the nature of that exercise.

It is not that I think that negatives are bad, I just think that they place stress on and over stretch the connective tissues when they are done with full rom into the deep negative rep portion. In other words, heavy negative, IMO, with the interest of avoiding injury, should only be done with partial reps near full extension.

I think the oly lifts are good, but again they can be done with odd objects.

There you have it, my long winded training philosophy.
Dude....

I could go a lot of places with this but I will try to keep it minimal.

A) the reason we work full range of motion is to promote strength across that full range of motion. Partial rep stuff is great, but without full range of motion work it can create big problems with flexibility. You only do quarter squats and sure you can do more weight, but your flexibility is going to be... sub par at best and most likely cause problems later on down the road.

B) no there are not any examples of "real world" situations in which you load weight up and sit down and stand up. BUT there are many real world situations where your knee bends more than 90 degrees. Try laying down on the ground and then standing up. Or empty your bowels the way we evolved to, squatting. These examples show us that in fact our knees are designed to bend much more than 90 degrees and do it safely. So now that we have established that greater than 90 degrees is a natural and safe ROM for our knees lets get strong in that ROM by using squats.

C) Eccentric movements do not load ligaments anymore than concentric loading. Ligaments connect bone to bone and have nothing to do with muscles, regardless of the type of contraction they are undergoing. In fact a properly preformed full depth squat puts less stress on the ligaments of the knee than a partial depth squat.

This thread is going all over the place. None of this has to do with the original question of this thread but I felt the need to respond. Sorry.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:50 PM   #123
Bryan Back
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Re: Natural Movements

Where do we see a person going past 90 on the squat...hmmmm.

Any third world country where they sit atg in order to sit. Up and down all day long. Philippine squat. Sort of a life long grease the groves of the air squat.

Get the water out of the well using a rope and bucket. Sort of a combo dead lift and squat move. Put the water on the water carrier across the shoulders and head to the village.

I don't know, we could just do them because they are an efficient way to build muscle, muscle endurance and flexibility in order to do all the things we do in life. Even if we just do them one at a time.

Crap, fellow soldier over the wall and he falls back... I am the break fall but I have to stop him in the quarter squat position. Yikes to much weight and momentum. He takes me into a full squat and splats me on the ground. What is all this pain in my knees and hams? Oh crap I tore or pulled something! Dude drag me to safety. It's the least you could do after landing on me. No, not that way drag me up hill where safety is. What do you mean you didn't evolve that way so I am SOL? AAARRRGG :stir:

Having said all that.... some of the moves you guys are discussing sound kind of fun. Heck, put them into the mix also. Woohoo
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:35 AM   #124
Jibreel Freeland
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post

A) the reason we work full range of motion is to promote strength across that full range of motion.
My assertion is that a full ROM lift targets your weakest portion of the rep, because it exhausts the muscle before the strongest portion of the rep is hit. In a way, doing full ROM squats only really works you in the bottom phases of the movement. That is why power lifters train with partials.


Quote:
Partial rep stuff is great, but without full range of motion work it can create big problems with flexibility.
Proof of this? So stretch.

Quote:
You only do quarter squats and sure you can do more weight, but your flexibility is going to be... sub par at best and most likely cause problems later on down the road.
I don't see any proof of this. IMO full ROM squats will cause more problems.

Quote:
B) no there are not any examples of "real world" situations in which you load weight up and sit down and stand up. BUT there are many real world situations where your knee bends more than 90 degrees.
Yes but not with double bodyweight on your back? And not for high reps consecutively?

Try laying down on the ground and then standing up. Or empty your bowels the way we evolved to, squatting. These examples show us that in fact our knees are designed to bend much more than 90 degrees and do it safely.[/quote]

Again, unless you have diarrhea and are a sumo wrestler, doing this movement with baring lot's of weight and for high reps is nowhere mimicked in Nature.

Quote:
So now that we have established that greater than 90 degrees is a natural and safe ROM for our knees lets get strong in that ROM by using squats.
I still think it is not a natural movement to do with significant weight on one's back, for reps especially. I just don't think there is any situation in prehistory that selected for us to have anatomy designed to withstand that. And I don't think you will ever see an old lifter doing ATG squats with a 100lb barbell, but you will see them doing partials with even more than 100lb's. This to me indicates that full ROM movements, squats in this case, are problematic.

Quote:
C) Eccentric movements do not load ligaments anymore than concentric loading.
They load the muscles more than concentrics. Why would that be any different for the connective tissues?

Quote:
Ligaments connect bone to bone and have nothing to do with muscles, regardless of the type of contraction they are undergoing.
So when you lift weights, only your muscles and tendons are baring weight, your ligaments are not subject to these external forces at all?

Quote:
In fact a properly preformed full depth squat puts less stress on the ligaments of the knee than a partial depth squat.
I have seen no proof of this and it is counter intuitive to me. Taking your knee joint past ninety degrees creates much more concentrated stress on that joint. It's a matter of physics and angles.

Last edited by Jibreel Freeland; 03-28-2009 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:36 AM   #125
Jibreel Freeland
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
What do chimps have to do with anything? Despite the genetic similarity, their proportions and therefore their biomechanics are completely different from ours.

Katherine
Actually their biomechanics are VERY similar. Our closest relative after all. Hence their adeptness at tool use.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:38 AM   #126
Jibreel Freeland
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Bryan Back View Post
Where do we see a person going past 90 on the squat...hmmmm.

Any third world country where they sit atg in order to sit. Up and down all day long. Philippine squat. Sort of a life long grease the groves of the air squat.
People always use this argument to defend full ROM squats. But third worlders do not do these movements for many repetitions baring large amounts of weight.
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Old 03-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #127
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Jibreel Freeland View Post
Actually their biomechanics are VERY similar. Our closest relative after all. Hence their adeptness at tool use.
Huh?

They don't walk upright, and their arms are longer than their legs. Any activity involving running or lifting will be very different for a chimpanzee.

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Old 03-28-2009, 02:05 PM   #128
Bryan Back
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Jibreel Freeland View Post
People always use this argument to defend full ROM squats. But third worlders do not do these movements for many repetitions baring large amounts of weight.
Maybe a look at the history of oly lifts and see how the old ones are doing? Not sure. It seems to me that many experienced coaches have beat this to death. Coaches who talk about partials is another way to train with more weight and fix a portion of the squat. Not done to replace the squat.

Having said all of this, there is a great amount of proof that you should do squats and that full range of motion is more safe that partial. Read what Rip has to say about it.

In the end it sounds like you just don't want to squat. If you believe full squats are bad for you then I suspect you will stop doing them. We simply disagree with you. You have our permission to stop doing them at any time.
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:58 PM   #129
Jibreel Freeland
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Re: Natural Movements

Bryan-



So you are refuting the laws of physics? Do you understand levers? Angles? Degrees? No matter what you say, the closer the tibia and fibia get to a ninety degree angle with the femur, the more stress is going to be placed on the joint. This is the reason why a pyramid, structurally, is more sound than a skyscraper (given that they are made from the same material).

Last edited by Jibreel Freeland; 03-28-2009 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:59 PM   #130
Jibreel Freeland
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Re: Natural Movements

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Huh?

They don't walk upright, and their arms are longer than their legs. Any activity involving running or lifting will be very different for a chimpanzee.

Katherine
Very different but very similar. Compared for instance, to any other non primate in the animal kingdom.
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