CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Digital Coaching
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Digital Coaching Post pictures or movies for critique and coaching

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-06-2010, 01:46 PM   #11
Anthony Giurato
Member Anthony Giurato is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 302
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
I haven't watched the video, so I'll have to check it out.
However, the picture you attached does not show the lifter with the bar in the starting position - it is already at, or slightly above, the knee and he's in a snatch grip, ready to do an OLY, not a deadlift
Sorry, I forgot to mention that part. I know the grip is far too wide for a deadlift. With a closer grip he'd be far closer to the floor. From there, he may have to adjust just little to reach the bar. I guess the biggest thing is when I do mine, I think I am focusing on my lower back and quads being firm before I pull. From what I have gathered in this thread and that video (hopefully I'm understanding correctly), I need focus on my hamstrings being firm before I pull, NOT my quads.

I think y'all have helped me enough for today. Next time I do them, I'll focus on:
#1 Starting with the bar over the center of my feet instead of my toes.
#2 Starting with my butt a little higher so that both my lower back and hamstrings are loaded (is that the right word?) before I start my pull.

Once I get more video, I'll post back with an update. Thanks a lot to all who posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Mallory View Post
lower your weight until you can keep your form in check, then progress
I did that in December. Since then, I have worked up to where I am now. I wish I had submitted some video during that time. Now I may have to regress a bit again.

Last edited by Anthony Giurato : 04-06-2010 at 02:03 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 08:37 PM   #12
Chris Mason
Banned Chris Mason is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charlottesville  VA
Posts: 4,708
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Hmm, just an FYI, if it lends any credence to my opinion I train with some frequency at Westside Barbell and I pulled 635 lbs x 7 in training last night.

I watched your video and your form looks ok to me. If you are weak then get stronger. Your form is not particularly bad at all. If you have access to a Reverse Hyper use it. If you can do glute ham raises then do so (you can do them on the floor if need be). Work various types of deads - stiffs, Romanian, sumo, and conventional. You will get stronger.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 06:06 AM   #13
Anthony Giurato
Member Anthony Giurato is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 302
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Hmm, just an FYI, if it lends any credence to my opinion I train with some frequency at Westside Barbell and I pulled 635 lbs x 7 in training last night.

I watched your video and your form looks ok to me. If you are weak then get stronger. Your form is not particularly bad at all. If you have access to a Reverse Hyper use it. If you can do glute ham raises then do so (you can do them on the floor if need be). Work various types of deads - stiffs, Romanian, sumo, and conventional. You will get stronger.
Thanks. It's nice to hear that my form isn't too far off.

Normally I'd agree with the "if you are weak then get stronger". However, I strained my lower back probably 2 or 3 times in highschool, twice during college, and 3 times since college (I'm 25 now, about 2 years since college). Each time I do it, I end up with my back not being fit to support a load for over a month. And the first few days after I do it I am hardly mobile.

I miss being able to load up the bar and seeing if I can squat it or if it crushes me. But now days, odds are if the weight is going too much to squat/dead/clean, I'm going to injure myself. Now I'm not sure if it is because of flexibility, strength, or form, but I'm hoping that the nice guys and gals on these forums will help me get to where I need to be.

PS Wow on the 7x635! I think the most I pulled back in high school was 500. I'm hoping that I can get back to the strength I had while training for football.


Updated video
Yesterday I did some technique work. Since I did heavy deadlifts the day before, I only loaded the bar with 135 lbs. I know it's hard to judge when I'm doing low reps with less than 40% of my max, but I was focusing on engaging my hamstrings more before I started my pull.

Does this look any better? 135 lbs x 5. WFS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVGj0TGOa4
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 06:08 AM   #14
Bob Guere
Banned Bob Guere is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California city  CA
Posts: 1,670
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Fix your form, your hamstrings are your limit. They are tight/weak and by lifting with improper form, you are exacerbating (sp?) the problem.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 06:32 AM   #15
Anthony Giurato
Member Anthony Giurato is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 302
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Guere View Post
Fix your form, your hamstrings are your limit. They are tight/weak and by lifting with improper form, you are exacerbating (sp?) the problem.
I'm trying to. Judging by everyone's responses so far, it's not a weak lower back. However, now I'm trying to fix whatever it is.

You say that my hamstrings are tight and/or weak. What would you recommend I do to loosen/strengthen them? I knew that some or all parts of my posterior chain (I think that's what it's called) were weak, so that is why I have started focusing so much on deadlifts. I guess I thought deadlifts were the best way to strengthen those muscle groups.

Truth be told, I'm more of a fan of squats and cleans. However, I realized my imbalance a while ago. Ever since high school football, I mainly thought of upper body and lower body. Squats and deadlifts were a lower body (mainly quads) exercise, so I focused on my legs. However, I'm realizing now that I have neglected strengthening my lowerback/hamstrings appropriately.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 06:43 AM   #16
Bob Guere
Banned Bob Guere is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California city  CA
Posts: 1,670
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Giurato View Post
I'm trying to. Judging by everyone's responses so far, it's not a weak lower back. However, now I'm trying to fix whatever it is.

You say that my hamstrings are tight and/or weak. What would you recommend I do to loosen/strengthen them? I knew that some or all parts of my posterior chain (I think that's what it's called) were weak, so that is why I have started focusing so much on deadlifts. I guess I thought deadlifts were the best way to strengthen those muscle groups.

Truth be told, I'm more of a fan of squats and cleans. However, I realized my imbalance a while ago. Ever since high school football, I mainly thought of upper body and lower body. Squats and deadlifts were a lower body (mainly quads) exercise, so I focused on my legs. However, I'm realizing now that I have neglected strengthening my lowerback/hamstrings appropriately.
There are a ton of videos with Kelly Starrett on flexibility in the Journal, watch them. Concentrate on stretches, and lifting for good form until you can keep your natural lumbar curve throughout the lift. Your updated video, which I just watched, is better. I would suggest having the bar further back during the setup, over the mid-foot. This will aid in lengthening your hamstrings at the start, provided you don't allow your pelvis to rotate under and lower back round. The bar should travel up your shins, not out in front of them a couple inches.

The pull from the ground should be slow and controlled, more of a "squeeze" than a pull. Hips, bar and shoulders should all move together. If you find yourself leading with hips again, cue yourself mentally to lead with the shoulders. I hesitate to say that because you don't want to literally "lead with the shoulders", everything should move in unison during the first pull. After the bar passes the knees, just stand up. Put the weight down just like you picked it up. Hips back, delay the forward travel of the knees until the bar passes them, then settle on the ground with hips, bar and shoulders moving together. Your practice of lowering the bar quickly, like a controlled drop, needs to be fixed. Slight less of a problem is your cranked neck, but I've seen far worse in my short time training.

Last edited by Bob Guere : 04-07-2010 at 06:47 AM. Reason: added another thought...
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 07:16 AM   #17
Anthony Giurato
Member Anthony Giurato is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 302
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Guere View Post
There are a ton of videos with Kelly Starrett on flexibility in the Journal, watch them. Concentrate on stretches, and lifting for good form until you can keep your natural lumbar curve throughout the lift. Your updated video, which I just watched, is better. I would suggest having the bar further back during the setup, over the mid-foot. This will aid in lengthening your hamstrings at the start, provided you don't allow your pelvis to rotate under and lower back round. The bar should travel up your shins, not out in front of them a couple inches.

The pull from the ground should be slow and controlled, more of a "squeeze" than a pull. Hips, bar and shoulders should all move together. If you find yourself leading with hips again, cue yourself mentally to lead with the shoulders. I hesitate to say that because you don't want to literally "lead with the shoulders", everything should move in unison during the first pull. After the bar passes the knees, just stand up. Put the weight down just like you picked it up. Hips back, delay the forward travel of the knees until the bar passes them, then settle on the ground with hips, bar and shoulders moving together. Your practice of lowering the bar quickly, like a controlled drop, needs to be fixed. Slight less of a problem is your cranked neck, but I've seen far worse in my short time training.
Thanks. There is a lot of good info in that post. I just subscribed to the journal yesterday and I'll look for stuff from Kelly Starrett.

I'll work on setting the weight down more slowly. I've read people go back and forth about how quickly to put the weights down and I thought my lowering speed was pretty moderate. However, I can also see how lowering the bar more slowly will probably give me a lot more strength and control in my hammies. Should I lower the weight slowly on cleans too?

Also, it's probably time I stop acting like a little B**** and let the bar get close to my shins on deads/cleans.

I know about having everything move at once. I rowed for 5 years and the concepts transfer very well between the deadlift and the stroke. In fact, in my first videos in this thread I was consciously thinking about not having my hips raise first and they still did. This is what led me to create this tread and find out why.

Once again, thanks for the good info.


So, next time I deadlift I'm going to focus on:
  1. Bar closer, both at the start and during the lift
  2. Lowering the bar more slowly and controlled, making sure that the negative is part of the rep.

Aside from that, I'm going to look up the flexibility stuff from Kelly Starrett. Is there anything else I think about next time I deadlift, or should I concentrate on those two for now?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 07:54 AM   #18
Bob Guere
Banned Bob Guere is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California city  CA
Posts: 1,670
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Those are great places to start. Lowering the bar slowly is for control and preventing injury, not necessarily for the "negative" benefits. If you watch folks who lower the bar quickly, most of them allow their lumbar curve to be compromised. Many young people get away with this for a while, but as you get older (I'm 40 this year) that can very easily (and will) lead to that dreaded "tweak".... think of the spine and erectors as the falling weight pulls them out of alignment, with you trying to "control" the fall of the weight, in counter-force to that pulling ... tweak-city.

Yes, get that bar in close, love the bar. Watch your vids, pause it half way up the shin, ... that bar should still be over the mid foot, and you have it inches in front.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2010, 10:43 AM   #19
Steven Webster
Member Steven Webster is offline
 
Steven Webster's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Huddersfield  Yorkshire UK
Posts: 294
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Giurato View Post
Is there anything else I think about next time I deadlift, or should I concentrate on those two for now?
Your knees have come back somewhat by raising the hips a little; as you say the bar is a little out in front. Now if you get it really close to your shins you should be able to get your back even tighter and drop the hips just a tiny bit more and really engage those hamstrings. Try it out for size, and even if it doesn't click with you I'll warrant you've already made a difference in the way your lifting feels and your confidence.

Mobility in the hips is very important, especially when you give them such a beating. Hip mobility will allow you to tuck your thighs in very close to your torso without losing back tightness. The benefits for your deadlifting and squatting may be obvious.

Here are two super painful exercises for your hips:

WFS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWfnA...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlYM3KWwrGY
WFS
__________________
...
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 06:27 PM   #20
Joe Bernard
Member Joe Bernard is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philadelphia  PA
Posts: 2,626
Re: My lower back is weak (deadlifts)

Ditch the running shoes and deadlift in barefeet or shoes with flat soles like chucks or VFFs. The running shoes have a squishy sole and provide an unstable base, lengthens how far the bar has to travel, and causes you to lose some power.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Weak lower back? (crunch noises, pain) + deadlift. Rob Cornell Health and Medical Issues 25 10-02-2009 05:19 PM
Lower Back and Right Leg Pain after Deadlifts Jay Shafir Injuries 18 03-24-2009 05:16 PM
Lower Thoracic Back Pain During Deadlifts/Squats Zach Miller Injuries 17 01-26-2009 09:49 PM
Lower Back Injury after deadlifts? John Arthur Spear Injuries 3 07-10-2007 09:18 AM
Deadlifts giving me lower back pain! Alfonso Bandera Exercises 18 12-18-2006 11:04 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.