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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 06-08-2011, 01:37 PM   #31
Stu Christensen
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Andrew James View Post
I don't buy your comparison between butterfly kips and squats and deadlifts. Here's why:

If you do squats and deadlifts with good form and you use a weight commensurate with your level of strength, your risk of injury is low.

The butterfly kipping pullup is inherently doing an exercise with bad form. If you watch that video you can see that his face, chin, hands, elbows, shoulder joints, and apparently collar bone are all at way too much risk for the tenuous benefits of such an exercise.

Pullups should be a tool for developing strength, not for metabolic conditioning.
What you're failing to realize is that the butterfly pullup isn't a bastardized dead hang pullup. It is a separate exercise with a different purpose, ROM, and benefit. By your theory, you should only do one type of squat. Instead, high bar, low bar, box, front, and olympic should all be stopped because some are more inherent to certain pathways and risk of injury.

Pullups, of all types, just like squats, of all types, have thier place. If you don't want to do them, don't. But posting that they are ridiculous and because one guy on a video fell, that ALL butterfly pullups should be stopped immediately would warrant every activity known to man stopped because there is always risk for injury. The question is, how much risk/benefit is there and what is the ratio that you, or anyone else is willing to accept of the risk:benefit before it is not worth doing.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:43 PM   #32
Andrew James
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Stu Christensen View Post
The question is, how much risk/benefit is there and what is the ratio that you, or anyone else is willing to accept of the risk:benefit before it is not worth doing.
Reread my post --- this was exactly my point.
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Old 06-08-2011, 01:44 PM   #33
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Andrew James View Post
I don't buy your comparison between butterfly kips and squats and deadlifts. Here's why:

If you do squats and deadlifts with good form and you use a weight commensurate with your level of strength, your risk of injury is low.

The butterfly kipping pullup is inherently doing an exercise with bad form. If you watch that video you can see that his face, chin, hands, elbows, shoulder joints, and apparently collar bone are all at way too much risk for the tenuous benefits of such an exercise.

Pullups should be a tool for developing strength, not for metabolic conditioning.
They can be both, just like any other physical activity.

Want to build speed? Do sprint repeats with long recovery periods. Want to improve conditioning? Do 400-800m repeats with shorter recovery. Want to build strength? Do 1RM cleans or thrusters. Want to build conditioning? Do them at lighter weights for time or in some sort of work/rest interval.

I do weighted pullups in the 6-8 rep range to build strength. I also do kipping or butterfly pullups during conditioning workouts. Both can be right depending on my goals and the specific workout.

I don't see anything in the video that would lead me towards any sort of conclusion about the bone and joint health of that individual, so it's silly to speculate.
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:22 PM   #34
Geoff Archibald
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

Crossfit is based on doing movements that shouldn't be used for conditioning metcons. How long is the list now?
kipping pullups (don't even think about doing them with a weighted vest)
Olympic lifts
Deadlifts
KB swings to over-head
Sumo Deadlift High Pulls

What other risky moves are there?
Muscle ups (or anything on the rings for that matter)
I've seen a surprising number of injuries from box jumps including two torn Achilles and a sprained back
GHDs cause people all kinds of problems
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Old 06-08-2011, 03:35 PM   #35
Stu Christensen
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Andrew James View Post
Reread my post --- this was exactly my point.
No you're not. You said butterfly kipping is doing an excercise (pullup) with bad form. There's nothing bad about butterfly kipping. It isn't a bad formed pullup, it is a totally separate exercise and the form is correct. You ALWAYS have a chance of injury...squatting, pressing, DL'ing, pullups etc and the chance of an injury doing butterfly pullups is no more than doing any other exercise - like you said - if you do it "using a weight commensurate with your level of strength".

I fail to see how your opinion that it is dangerous, moreso though any other exercise CF'ers do, is valid. It seems to me you're just looking for something to complain about.
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Old 06-08-2011, 07:13 PM   #36
Andrew James
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Stu Christensen View Post
No you're not. You said butterfly kipping is doing an excercise (pullup) with bad form. There's nothing bad about butterfly kipping. It isn't a bad formed pullup, it is a totally separate exercise and the form is correct. You ALWAYS have a chance of injury...squatting, pressing, DL'ing, pullups etc and the chance of an injury doing butterfly pullups is no more than doing any other exercise - like you said - if you do it "using a weight commensurate with your level of strength".

I fail to see how your opinion that it is dangerous, moreso though any other exercise CF'ers do, is valid. It seems to me you're just looking for something to complain about.
The butterfly Kip has a greater chance of injury than a squat or a deadlift, for anyone, but especially for those with significant body mass. If you can't see this, I give up trying to convince you.

It seems to me that you can't understand my original point that the risk of injury on that exercise outweighs the benefit despite that I clearly stated such in my original post.

Also, you're right that I believe a butterfly Kip is a pull up with atrocious form. On this, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 06-08-2011, 08:20 PM   #37
Kenneth Westerman
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

Can anyone tell me why a lifetime CFer has a shorter life expectancy than the long walker? Wouldn't crossfit result in improved cardiovascular health, stronger muscles and bones, etc., all resulting in greater longevity?
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Old 06-08-2011, 08:28 PM   #38
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Can anyone tell me why a lifetime CFer has a shorter life expectancy than the long walker? Wouldn't crossfit result in improved cardiovascular health, stronger muscles and bones, etc., all resulting in greater longevity?
That is the assumption. Crossfit hasn't been around long enough to really test it.

The counter-argument would be that the more intense Crossfit workouts lead to chronic injuries, reducing lifespan and/or undermining quality of life. No evidence for that, either.

Katherine
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:56 AM   #39
Andrew James
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

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Originally Posted by Kenneth Westerman View Post
Can anyone tell me why a lifetime CFer has a shorter life expectancy than the long walker? Wouldn't crossfit result in improved cardiovascular health, stronger muscles and bones, etc., all resulting in greater longevity?
There's something to be said for the issue of hard exercise and wear on the body.

Professional athletes across many contact sports have shorter life expectancy than average.
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Old 06-09-2011, 06:24 AM   #40
Michael Dowling
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Re: Crossfit's definition of health

trying to track injury rates amongst crossfit would be impossible, too many loosely affiliated gyms and people doing it on their own. crossfit is also such a broad term, heck many of the posters here don't even seem to do crossfit anymore, but some strength program or hybrid program. if someone got hurt at an affiliate with back squats on a heavy 5-5-5 is that a CF injury?
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