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Old 04-29-2010, 06:38 AM   #21
adam adkins
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

Very nice article Greg. Many on here want to turn this into a debate of evolutionary diet but regardless of their conclusions this is really solid advice.

For me, I recover better with more protein than your guidelines and feel better substituting fat for carbs, ending up with about half of your recommended carbs. But that doesn't change the fact that your advice is sound and works great as a baseline for nearly anyone wanting to get or stay lean.

Nice work.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:03 AM   #22
David Joseph Danaher
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Michael Dries View Post
Now I'm waiting for Katherine to crawl up my butt

I just like to quote things out of context, for the awkwardness of it!
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:25 AM   #23
John Jaeckel
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Now clinical studies are the gold standard? What about the ones that say cholesterol is bad, high carb diets are good, and staying in the aerobic zone is the most important aspect of exercise? You can't dismiss clinical studies that you don't like while insisting that the studies you do like are indisputable.

As for science, it's a process. That process includes clinical studies, but lots of other stuff, too. Sometimes a few anecdotes are the driving force for a hypothesis, which is then tested in a more rigorous study. Sometimes, it's impossible to control enough variables for a clinical study, and so you end up turning to observational studies, population statistics, and other tools. Sometimes -- as in studies of the paleo diet -- your subjects are dead and you have to extrapolate from their grave goods and trash piles. Sometimes your clinical study omits so many variables that the model breaks down and the data is actually meaningless.

One thing science is *not,* is bludgeoning people with Authorities Who Must Not be Questioned, even if the evidence of their own eyes is different. That's just another form of religion.

Katherine
Two things:

1) you make a lot of good points, especially re: cholesterol

2) don't get personal. Nobody's bludgeoning anyone.

I, for one, am not questioning anyone's credentials or right to debate the subject. I try to keep it to the facts as I know them. And if I'm presented with a contrary point of view that throws what I'm saying into question, I'll generally accept it with an open mind. That's the difference between a discussion and a p---ing contest.

There are a lot of assumptions on here about people's backgrounds, and especially, it seems, if you're an adherent of Robb Wolf's, that's where you get all your information ("One thing science is *not,* is bludgeoning people with Authorities Who Must Not be Questioned").

Again, no p---ing contests here. But that's not the case with me. I work in the fields of diabetes, nutrition and oncology (marketing to healthcare professionals). But in order to do so effectively, you need some understanding of the science. I was also an Anthro major for a time in college. Point being, I was fundamentally oriented toward Paleo long before I'd ever heard of Robb.

Peace
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:29 AM   #24
John Jaeckel
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
There's an increasing body of evidence showing that the human genome has evolved in historical time, and is continuing to evolve now. Lactose tolerance in particular is much more common in populations from the areas where cows were first domesticated, and there's some evidence of a similar pattern of evolved gluten tolerance in wheat-growing regions. Given the degree to which we've been able to manipulate the genes of domestic animals over the last ten thousand years, it seems a bit simplistic to assume that our own genome has been static.

Katherine
Not assuming that at all. At the same time, I was responding to Greg's comment that "this is 2010 and we need to focus on what works today."

Well, I don't hear of people dying or getting diabetes from a natural (yes, Paleo) diet. And I think you and I agree on that. And you and I both know, 10,000 years is a blip in the overall context of human evolution.

I do agree with you that there is a lot of evidence of neolithic/post-agricultural foods that a lot of people seem to tolerate and even thrive on. Is that a result of an adpatation or something that was already there in their genetics, I don't know.
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Last edited by John Jaeckel : 04-29-2010 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:31 AM   #25
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
What theory? I was just pointing out that carbs are indeed available in January in cold climates. You're the one who hypothesized an almost exclusively meat-based winter diet.

Katherine
That's fair, sorry for my semantics.

And, with all due respect, I'm sticking by my hypothesis, because it seems to make sense intuitively and it is to a degree supported by fossil evidence.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:40 AM   #26
Gerhard Lavin
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

The OP's recommendations are pretty solid. If you do the maths it works out as an nice isocalorific diet, very similar to zone proportion.

If you follow the advise to add additional fat to add mass it comes close to an "Athlete's Zone". Just no silly block.

If You follow the macronutrient portioning advise it's actually pretty close to "40 ways to skin the zone" or lots of similar recommendations that predate that.

But of course we didn't do that. Instead we picked on a few food choices, and made it into a Paleo is best thread. Of course by Paleo we mean a CFDB Atkins diet. Not the same paleo diets that can encompass carbohydrate ranges from almost zero carbs to 80% of daily intake. The OP advises against gluten for most and recommends dairy if you can stomach it. Hardly contentious.

One of the complaints was that the carb intake is too high unless you are doing 5x20 min CF session a week. People If you are following CF you should be doing at least that much, plus skill work plus learning/playing new sports, hence the glycogen needs.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:46 AM   #27
Gerhard Lavin
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by John Jaeckel View Post
That's fair, sorry for my semantics.

And, with all due respect, I'm sticking by my hypothesis, because it seems to make sense intuitively and it is to a degree supported by fossil evidence.
Evidence from coprolites showing paleo humans had a daily fibre intake of over 100g per day. Were they getting that from steak and eggs? Link is WFS.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:15 AM   #28
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Wadholm View Post
I know everyone rides Wolff's nuts in here SO hard but Greg - THANK YOU for taking the time to write that and thank you for taking the time to link it up here.
1) You take today's gold medal away from Mark Wallace for making me laugh out loud

2) I second the thank you to Greg!
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:27 AM   #29
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Wadholm View Post
Some serious jerks and know it alls in this thread.

Dieting isn't a science. I know everyone rides Wolff's nuts in here SO hard but Greg - THANK YOU for taking the time to write that and thank you for taking the time to link it up here.

What works for one person may not work for another and there are different paths to the same result.

Greg's got some great ideas and some solid fundamentals here. People need to quit drinking the fricking kool-aid and just relax. Too many "arm chair dieticians" who think they know it all from reading a book or a blog. Greg has said that his method is PROVEN with his own results and that of his clients. You can blab all day about "Wolf says this and Science says that" but FACTS and RESULTS are not disputable. His clients have got lean. So it works.

Quit being such elitests.

Thanks Greg!
That is seriously the best thing I have ever read on these boards. 100% needed to be said.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:35 AM   #30
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Re: Getting lean. Basic dietary principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by Walker Fenz View Post
1) You take today's gold medal away from Mark Wallace for making me laugh out loud
Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!
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