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Old 10-13-2009, 05:34 AM   #21
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by John Devine View Post
Daryl, +1 on the nice post.

Here's where I have questions...Robb generally recommends the opposite of what you're saying. He says to see additional improvement in performance or weight loss you need to decrease carbs and increase fat. He has lots of evidence, both scientific and anecdotal, to back up his approach. I don't see how you can both be right. (I also don't see how you could conclusively prove either without a study that put the same subjects through both protocols and determined which approach had better success.)
From an evolutionary perspective we evolved in an environment where fats, particularly animal fats, were scarce most of the year consequently our bodies have evolved with the capacity to synthesize all the fat we need apart from the essential fatty acids and our requirment for those is just a couple of grams per day. This means that we can do fine with as little as 20g of fat per day which helps ensure the proper absorption of fat soluble vitamins but even that isn't required every day as long as you're getting a couple of grams of EFA's per day. Obviously if you have extremely high energy needs you will benefit from more than 20g/d as fats increase the energy density of the diet without adding bulk but most of us already eat more fat than we really need so there's no reason to deliberately increase your fat intake.

Protein requirements for athletes are fixed within a fairly narrow range (1.2-1.8g/kg/d) and only increase significantly above 1.2g/d for the first couple of weeks at the start of a new exercise program. The protein requirements of a 70kg athlete would be quite low then at 84-126g/d and this can easily be met from almost any mixed diet, including a vegan diet, as long as caloric needs are met.

The biggest variable in terms of daily macronutrient requirements therefore is carbohydrates with a 70kg couch potato needing perhaps 210-350g/d (3-5g/kg/d) to meet daily energy needs which is about what you'd get if you followed Cordains Paleo Diet and ate plenty of fruit. The athlete on the other hand has a far greater requirment for carbohydrates at 420-700g/d (6-10g/kg/d) if they're going to ensure that glycogen stores are replenished between workouts and this is why they are generally advised to prioritise carbs at every meal. This also fits with our evolutionary biology as throughout most of our history paleo man had almost unlimited access to all types of carbohydrates so any increase in daily energy requirements could most easily have been met by increasing his consumption of starchy roots and tubers.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fu...rmance.27.aspx (wfs)

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 10-13-2009 at 05:56 AM. Reason: Added link.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:41 AM   #22
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post

The biggest variable in terms of daily macronutrient requirements therefore is carbohydrates with a 70kg couch potato needing perhaps 210-350g/d (3-5g/kg/d) to meet daily energy needs which is about what you'd get if you followed Cordains Paleo Diet and ate plenty of fruit. The athlete on the other hand has a far greater requirment for carbohydrates at 420-700g/d (6-10g/kg/d) if they're going to ensure that glycogen stores are replenished between workouts and this is why they are generally advised to prioritise carbs at every meal. This also fits with our evolutionary biology as throughout most of our history paleo man had almost unlimited access to all types of carbohydrates so any increase in daily energy requirements could most easily have been met by increasing his consumption of starchy roots and tubers.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fu...rmance.27.aspx (wfs)
Why would anyone "need" carbs to meet energy needs? why can't you use fat for energy or even protein? Glycogen stores can be repleted even with small intake of carbs if your overall intake is adequate.

Darryl, I think you should define "athlete" becuase some people might think you are talking about a typical crossfitter that works out 4-5 hours per week. The numbers you quote are geared towards collegiate/pro athletes that workout 4-5 hours per day.
The typical crossfitter shouldn't have any problem keeping glycogen stores full if he isn't starving himself.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:03 AM   #23
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Why would anyone "need" carbs to meet energy needs? why can't you use fat for energy or even protein?
You or I don't need to eat carbs to meet our daily energy needs because we can get our calories from fats and protein (or beer and twinkies) if we want but paleo man wouldn't have cut his carbs in favour of fats because he never had the option of adding fat to his diet.

The Paleo Diet is meant to replicate the dietary habits of stone age humans and they only had two options when it came to meeting their daily energy needs; wild game (which is always very lean) and gathered plants. Hunting always involves a degree of luck and it's not uncommon for hunter-gatherers to go a week or more without a kill so gathered plants, particularly starchy roots and tubers, generally provide most of the calories on a day to day basis in most hunter-gatherer societies.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur
Glycogen stores can be repleted even with small intake of carbs if your overall intake is adequate.
If you do the math I suspect you'll find that your carbohydrate requirements are higher than you think.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur
Darryl, I think you should define "athlete" becuase some people might think you are talking about a typical crossfitter that works out 4-5 hours per week. The numbers you quote are geared towards collegiate/pro athletes that workout 4-5 hours per day.
The typical crossfitter shouldn't have any problem keeping glycogen stores full if he isn't starving himself.
I used the term "athlete" as shorthand for "someone with a generally physically active lifestyle". The CHO requirements for most people reading this then would most likely fall somewhere between those of a couch potato and an elite athete who trains daily at a fairly high intensity, so ~6g/kg/d should be about right for the average recreational athlete/crossfitter.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:18 AM   #24
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

So if you just buy meat from the store and don't focus on leaner meats then you're not meeting the paleo requirements?
Man, this can get confusing.
It's like I hear "Eat meat and vegetables, etc." you all know the saying.
I try to follow it and it's "Whoa wait, don't eat that meat."
Of course I guess I can simplify it and say "Well I may not be buying grassfed wild game, but that frozen bag of chicken breasts at Wal-Mart combined with some frozen broccoli for dinner is probably still healthier than a pizza." But it can get kind of frustrating for a person trying to lock this down (as i have been) when they're told the CF standard of "Eat meat and vegetables, etc." but then told they aren't eating the right kind of meat, etc.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:24 AM   #25
Greg Privitera
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

While I do think people are too carb shy in a lot of cases, and go too heavy on fats and stay overfat on paleo....

Darryl: how do you think a crossfitter will be burning 480g of carbs a day? Someone my size. 30m of work 5-6 days per week? While most other activities are aerobic?

I'd say 120-150g for the brain, at Most 100g for a wod. That's about half of what you recommend.

Additional calories CAN be comprised of a combination of carbs and fats, but I don't think we should say that the carbs are "required".

Also, from the experience of thousands of athletes and even some of my own training clients, there does seem to be an advantage in a higher protein intake. Yes I'm aware of the studies you site, but this is a case of too much anecdotal evidence dating the contrary.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:33 AM   #26
Renee Lee
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Jason R O'Dell View Post
So if you just buy meat from the store and don't focus on leaner meats then you're not meeting the paleo requirements?
Man, this can get confusing.
It's like I hear "Eat meat and vegetables, etc." you all know the saying.
I try to follow it and it's "Whoa wait, don't eat that meat."
Of course I guess I can simplify it and say "Well I may not be buying grassfed wild game, but that frozen bag of chicken breasts at Wal-Mart combined with some frozen broccoli for dinner is probably still healthier than a pizza." But it can get kind of frustrating for a person trying to lock this down (as i have been) when they're told the CF standard of "Eat meat and vegetables, etc." but then told they aren't eating the right kind of meat, etc.
chicken is lean, you're fine.

though i...and many others on this board...have suggested that those precooked frozen chicken breasts you find at walmart are probably NOT your most cost effective option

Also, although Darryl (and Dr. Cordain) disagree...i personally don't believe that fatty meats are detrimental to the paleo/primal way of life, even where fat loss is a primary goal.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:52 AM   #27
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Renee Lee View Post
chicken is lean, you're fine.

though i...and many others on this board...have suggested that those precooked frozen chicken breasts you find at walmart are probably NOT your most cost effective option

Also, although Darryl (and Dr. Cordain) disagree...i personally don't believe that fatty meats are detrimental to the paleo/primal way of life, even where fat loss is a primary goal.
Well I feel in my case with someone that's still new to it (even though i've been doing it since February i'm still new to this really based off my previous eating habits) that I do start complicating things and probably overthinking it for myself if I get into the "Eat meat, well not that meat....." thing.

Yes the pre-cooked bag of frozen chicken isn't the best thing for you, but it's affordable on my budget and it's still chicken (i hope). It is really the easiest and most affordable way for me to go. Especially because I don't have a butcher to buy in bulk from. And the bags are the biggest I can find. I tried Sam's and all they do is take two of the bags, tie them together and double the price. So why don't I just buy two bags at Wal-Mart? Believe me, I've researched the alternatives I have available to me and it is the cheapest route to go for me.

I mean really can I go wrong eating just any kind of meat. As long as it's not some pre-made pressed together version of different meats like a hot dog or what not I think I'm good.

It goes back to being better than what I would've been eating had I not switched to paleo.

I'll just leave it with the simplified "Eat meat" part.

I think the only fatty meat I get is beef. I don't know how fatty pork chops really are.

Last edited by Jason R O'Dell : 10-14-2009 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:54 AM   #28
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

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Originally Posted by Greg Privitera View Post
While I do think people are too carb shy in a lot of cases, and go too heavy on fats and stay overfat on paleo....

Darryl: how do you think a crossfitter will be burning 480g of carbs a day? Someone my size. 30m of work 5-6 days per week? While most other activities are aerobic?

I'd say 120-150g for the brain, at Most 100g for a wod. That's about half of what you recommend.

Additional calories CAN be comprised of a combination of carbs and fats, but I don't think we should say that the carbs are "required".
Are you taking into account calories required for general daily activities?

Anyway, ~6g/kg/d should be about right for most of us but if you're more (or less) sedentary than the average crossfitter apply common sense and make adjustments accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Privitera
Also, from the experience of thousands of athletes and even some of my own training clients, there does seem to be an advantage in a higher protein intake. Yes I'm aware of the studies you site, but this is a case of too much anecdotal evidence dating the contrary.
I know athletes like to think that increasing their protein intake above what's generally been shown to be appropriate improves performance but increasing your protein intake, whether from supplements or increased meat consumption, "works" by adding calories to the diet and calories are far more important in the great scheme of things than protein. Generally speaking though protein requirements can be met from almost any mixed diet as long as calories are adequate so it isn't something most of us really need to worry about.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:17 AM   #29
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

Jason,

Sam's club chicken quarter are like 88 cents a lbs. Eat that. Hell, their chicken breasts, the plain ones in the meat section are less than $2 per lbs. Get those instead.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:40 AM   #30
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Paleo: the best diet bar none.

See, I've bought the quarters before and eaten them. Neither me or my wife were a big fan. We really only like the breast meat and I guess if anything else just strictly the drumstick.

And I didn't see the cheap chicken breasts you are referring to at Sam's. I combed the place and basically found the same thing as the frozen bags just bigger. And it worked out the same as buying two regular bags at WalMart.
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