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Old 07-19-2010, 11:51 AM   #41
Shane Skowron
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Andy Gann View Post
It is easier for a 6'+ athlete to DL 500# and run a 21 minute 5k than it is for a 135# athlete to dead lift 500 lbs and still run a 21 minute 5k.
Yes, that's my point.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:52 AM   #42
Justin McCallon
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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So - Spealler - with a DL of 400 and a Squat of 300 ALREADY HAS A 5x BW Crossfit Total without adding in the press. Does that not count as legitimately strong?
A 700lb Deadlift+Squat is not legitimately strong considering people at a reasonable bodyweight can Deadlift more than that, and that people with very high bodyweights can Deadlift over 300lbs more.

An ant can lift 10x its bodyweight. And a small child still crushes it.


Again, I don't mean to diminish Chris Spealler. He put on an exceptional performance and it is really unbelievable that he was able to do so well in all the CF couplet/triplet events. I also don't think he *****es about not having more CF events that favor him -- he goes out and tries to get better and stronger. But, I don't think he is one of the top 3 fittest of all the competitors this weekend considering some competitors were 50% stronger and could come close to keeping up on other stuff.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:53 AM   #43
Justin McCallon
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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I don't see those guys in the list of competitors ....
I know. And what I said was: "this is literally under half of what some people can lift at reasonable bodyweights, i.e. around 200lbs"
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:54 AM   #44
Andy Gann
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

Well - I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I'm a bigger guy - 6'1", 215# but I guess I disagree with:

1) The way it was scored, mathmatically, wouldn't ultimately reflect the person who did the best

2) That absolute strength overrides strength relative to BW. I know this has been hashed over and over and over and over ... but, I had to throw that in.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:56 AM   #45
Josh Crawford
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
Phil Harrington YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- 198lbs, 945lb (suited) squat
Ryan Celli YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- Weighs 198lbs, squats 600 raw
Ed Coan YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- Weighed 239 and deadlifted 901. I believe he also deadlifted over 800 at 198.

Re-read my post.
It's irrelevant comparing specialized athletes. Kalipa's 5k is 22 minutes, yet it's been completed in the low 13s for many years.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:00 PM   #46
Justin McCallon
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Andy Gann View Post
Well - I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here. I'm a bigger guy - 6'1", 215# but I guess I disagree with:

1) The way it was scored, mathmatically, wouldn't ultimately reflect the person who did the best

2) That absolute strength overrides strength relative to BW. I know this has been hashed over and over and over and over ... but, I had to throw that in.
Any reasonable scoring method (just from eyeballing it) would have left the top 3 men and the top 2 women the same. But it could have been quite different if things were closer.

I also don't think absolute strength is more important than strength relative to BW. I think they are both very important. I'd love to see an event like:

10 minutes to establish:
1rm Bench Press, and
Highest Vertical Jump

I think they are equally important. Again, though, look at the average time spent on the weights on both the men's and the women's side and compare it to the average time spent on the bodyweight stuff. Does anyone think it was even close?

(I'm ignoring double unders because nobody had an issue with those, it's just a pure skill thing)
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:03 PM   #47
Kevin Bensette
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

The only solution I can think of is a re-rank after each cut. Re-adjust the points based on removing the eliminated players totally from the finishing order of the previous event. So each player takes their times forward but them a 35th place finish in the first event would only count as a 16th place finish or 16 points going into the final series of events.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:03 PM   #48
Justin McCallon
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Josh Crawford View Post
It's irrelevant comparing specialized athletes. Kalipa's 5k is 22 minutes, yet it's been completed in the low 13s for many years.
And this is a reason why I don't think Khalipa should be considered the fittest out there, either.

It's not completely irrelevant. It's worth looking at the very top performers in various specialized events and seeing where the top CFers rank relative to them to get an idea of where we are on the "spectrum."

(Those low 13m times are from people that weigh 120 or so ... my numbers would be analogous to looking at people that weigh 150 ... otherwise the top raw squat is around 3x Spealler's and the top raw deadlift is 2.5x Spealler's)
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:04 PM   #49
Shane Skowron
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
Phil Harrington YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- 198lbs, 945lb (suited) squat
Ryan Celli YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- Weighs 198lbs, squats 600 raw
Ed Coan YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.-- Weighed 239 and deadlifted 901. I believe he also deadlifted over 800 at 198.

Re-read my post.
What's the point of presenting the performances of some of the strongest men ever?

There are guys who can run sub-4 minute miles. There are guys who can hold front levers for 20 and 30 seconds. The strongest CF'ers are just as far away from these standards as Speal is from a 900 lb squat.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:04 PM   #50
Justin McCallon
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Re: 2010 games scoring - impossible to catch up?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Bensette View Post
The only solution I can think of is a re-rank after each cut. Re-adjust the points based on removing the eliminated players totally from the finishing order of the previous event. So each player takes their times forward but them a 35th place finish in the first event would only count as a 16th place finish or 16 points going into the final series of events.
Yeah exactly. That's what someone said in the Comments page and that's what I was talking about in the first post. It's a good idea.

(Of course, I think the whole scoring system is flawed and should be changed, but HQ seems to think using things like Standard Deviation is too complex)
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