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Old 06-02-2008, 07:35 AM   #41
Skylar Cook
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Yeah, my dad (an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries) and I spent a good half hour discussing the mechanics of the two movements and the possibility for injury. Basically the only real possibilty for injury will arise, like Steven said, with poor activation of the shoulders. If you manage to keep an active shoulder throughout all your workouts, the chance of injury is slim. However, more reps can be achieved with less (muscular) fatigue if the ligaments surrounding the shoulder are allowed to bear the strain, rather than maintaining an active shoulder and forcing your muscles to absorb the force. I'm suspicious I'm not the only one who doesn't constantly think "active shoulder" during workouts like Angie or Fran. This is fine if you've been doing kipping PUs (with active shoulders) for a while, as the ligaments will have time to toughen up. The traditional kip is a lot less "dangerous" to teach newbies as it involves less possible strain on the ligaments. It's the basic CF introduction - start with less intensity (normal kip), then progress (butterfly/AFT kip).
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Old 06-02-2008, 07:43 AM   #42
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Skylar - agree. I tell all of our guys and girls - once they can bang out 15 kipping pullups nonstop with good form - I'll teach them butterfly kip.

Works well and conditions their shoulders.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:33 AM   #43
Brandon Oto
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

I seriously doubt that ANYONE does high-rep kipping pullups with active shoulders at the bottom. That's like deadlifting a 1RM with retracted scapulae.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:57 PM   #44
Jimi Miller
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Many forum boards I'm apart of ban people for posting private messages. Just fyi.
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Old 06-02-2008, 03:24 PM   #45
David Wood
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Yes, I know. Frank has apologized (sort of), as has Kirez (sort of), for sending an overly-harsh PM.

Now, can we get back to discussing the original subject? My own thoughts: surgically-repaired shoulders don't do well with either kip. I've become (unwillingly) a dead-hang guy. But, happily, even dead-hangs get better over time . . . got 14 in a row the other day (equal to my old (pre-surgery) PR for dead-hangs). Now one year since my surgery, and still getting incrementally better.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:04 PM   #46
Allen Yeh
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Check out some of the newer comments on Robb's blog about the BFK. OPT weighs in with his thoughts as well as a few other of the CF'ers that have been around. A lot of good thoughts.

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Old 06-03-2008, 08:17 AM   #47
Aaron Moburg-Jones
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Robb Wolf has some how been black balled by DoD so I can no longer read it from work. Lame. I'll check it out at home.

But I disagree with Brandon. I do all my kipping pull-ups (not BFK) with active shoulders after spending a month unable to sleep for more than an hour at a time because when I rolled over shoulder pain woke me up. It sucked. I develped the habit because as I was getting back into the pull-ups after a lay off keeping my shoulders active was the only way I could do them without a sharp pain to remind me when my form flagged.

It has reduced my max pull-ups from low 30's to mid 20's. A price I will very willingly pay. The harder part is that Fran is no longer all unbroken pull-ups. Still, sleeping through the night is priceless.

Quick observation. Allowing your shoulders to slack basically gaurantees full ROM on all reps. Active shoulders is a very short step from short arming the pull-up, especially when your motivation for keeping them active is to prevent the slamming at the botyom of the movement. It is hard to straighten your arm but keep your shoulders active.
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Old 06-03-2008, 09:37 AM   #48
Brandon Oto
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

I stand corrected. At least one person does kipping pullups with active shoulders.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:24 PM   #49
Andrew Makely
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

I have read some of the info on the butterfly kip and watched the video, and what strikes me is that it has less of a real world application, as in climbing over obstacles, etc. Your momentum is coming up and back, not forward or straight up. What is everyones opinion on this? I could be wrong, its just my impression. I'm not critizing it, the work done by it is impressive.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:29 PM   #50
Andrew Makely
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

After watching some more ... maybe i wrong motion does end forward some.
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