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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 10-10-2008, 09:19 AM   #11
John Edmondson
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

George, Shane,
The movements are typically taught in triplets: squat/front squat/overhead squat, press/push press/push jerk, and deadlift/SDLHP/clean, from the simplest to the most complex. While each is integral to CrossFit as a stand -alone movement, just as importantly, each is a portion of a more complex movement, such as the clean and jerk, thruster, and the snatch.
While the dip and pullup may come up more often in the daily WODs than the SDLHP, it is a crucial "gateway" or transitional movement from the DL to the clean or snatch, and as such serves its purpose very well. Transitioning an athlete from the DL to the clean without them first mastering the explosive opening of the hip learned in the SDLHP is akin to teaching someone to run without first learning to walk: possible, but far more difficult than if they'd first learned the simpler movement first.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:32 AM   #12
John C. Brown
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Shane,

These movements were chosen because they are universal motor recruitment patterns. First, they are a progression on each other, that I won't explain since Frederic did such a good job. Bottom line is that you can't clean until you can Dead lift and front squat. As far as the pressing movements being the same with different levels of hip involvement, think of each one in the progression as a more efficient means to the same end as the one before. The most efficient way (and maybe the only way by proxy of the size of the object to be lifted) to get something from chest to overhead is the Push Jerk, and putting things overhead for one reason or another is important.

I said that these movements are universal motor recruitment patterns. Basically what that means is that if you desire to get better at things that involve the human body, you need to do these things well. If you want to jump high or far, you need to squat, clean and dead lift. If you want to run fast... same. As far as the over head stuff goes, they illicit some of the strongest contractions of the core and require enormous amounts of midline stabilization. That translates to all of sport.

The Sumo Dead Lift High Pull: This movement is a precursor to the clean. It teaches proper kinetic chain when taking something from the ground to the chest. It is also a more functional version of the clean (in a manner of speaking, I know there is no drop under or third pull). Think about it like this: if your buddy gets shot in the streets of Iraq are you going to run him through with a bar so you can clean him up to your shoulder, or are you going to straddle him with your hands inside of your feet, violently extend your hips and then drop under him?
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:42 AM   #13
Frederic Giraud
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Yes well I guess we could be picky with the wording we choose ... Yes it is the basics of the Crossfit lifts ...but those lifts also tremendously helps with all the other movements , so we could also say they are the basics of the Crossfit movements in my opinion :P

I'm not sure im answering much of your question tho, but with those you pretty much cover the pushing basis , pulling basis as well as the whole body recruitment basis ( with the squats)

I was as well surprised when I was first introduced to those 9 movements but the more I've been using them and thinking about them the more I see how they all impact pretty much all we do. Again those are only the basis, lots of other skill are to be practiced and mastered.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:44 AM   #14
George Noble
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

I'd understand the progression of a high pull to a clean if the high pull were actually a high pull, but since everyone I have seen does the exercise as I described (and nobody has corrected me saying that this is not the standard), I assume that the SDHP is taught as a sumo pull followed by an upright row. It seems to me a strange progression to teach an early elbow bend just before teaching the clean. I brought this up with Mark Rippetoe in a different context here: http://www.************.net/forum/sh...ad.php?t=1731& (as WFS as Rip ever is), and he agrees with me. But I have no experience teaching the O lifts and I know that some of the WL coaches on here disagree with Rip about a few things, so I'd like to hear their opinion on it and whether they think it's requisite for learning to clean.

I have chatted to O lifters online and in real life before though, and I'd never heard of a sumo deadlift high pull until I saw it on CrossFit, so I'd wager that some people managed to learn the clean without it otherwise they would have mentioned it to me when I expressed an interest in learning to clean.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:01 AM   #15
Victor Putz
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Dunno, George. I'm a pretty simple guy, so I googled "sumo deadlift high pull" and clicked on the first link, which was a YouTube of "Crossfit Sumo Deadlift High pull", and since during the demo the demonstrator was actually coming off the ground and letting momentum carry the "weight" up, and since the "good/bad" section showed straight arms until finished with the "jump" and arms following the weight more than blatantly lifting it, I'd say that all the "CFers" you've seen doing it have been doing it wrong.

Looks like a pretty obvious clean prep exercise to me, I guess. And I had to have the volume down at work, so they could have been explaining it different.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:43 AM   #16
George Noble
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Well here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq_aiYLzgk8 - wfs) of Coach explaining it. The girl on the box with the PVC pipe is doing largely what you described, but the guy working with 50 kg is clearly doing upright rows, even in the versions labelled "good." The group workout seems to be a mixture.

Also of note is that all examples are held at the top. You can't hold a bar in that position without using your delts, which in my limited knowledge is bad prep for a clean.

The first time I saw SDLHPs was in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1vxLltVyUQ (wfs). They are certainly CrossFitters (so no need for inverted commas) and they are certainly doing upright rows.
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Old 10-10-2008, 10:54 AM   #17
Zach Forrest
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Back to the discussion of the 9 Foundational Movements (we seemed to be focusing too much on the SDHP) I'd like to point out that these movements are also more easily related to the movement patterns involved in an average person's day.

If one was to try and compare the necessity of 1)picking things up off the ground, 2)squatting, and 3)putting something overhead to A)pulling yourself over a ledge (pull-up) or B)pushing something away (push-up...which can be easily related to putting something overhead) you would find that the first three motor recruitment patterns are WAY more utilized.

Of course, I might be generalizing far too much...

At CFLV, our Foundations Course includes the 9 Movements plus the Pull-up, Push-up, Sit-up, and Burpee.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:13 PM   #18
John C. Brown
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

George,

When we teach the SDHP at certs (by the way, the HP stands for High Pull, so it would make sense that you would see it that way, however the impetus for the movement are the hip extensors through the core and to the traps, not the arms. As far as seeing someone hold the top position in videos, I haven't seen them and really don't care what they show... There are millions of videos showing bad form, even if it is called good form. The top position is meant to be reached and released immediately. The videos where people stop at the top are just showing the top of the move. I am in no way trying to be rude, but you asked a question and several people have provided you similar answers. If you are looking for validation of how this movement is messed up, look somewhere else. As far as people performing an upright row, last time I read Muscle and Fiction, this was an isolated contraction of the traps with zero hip involvement whatsoever. If this is what you saw, then the person was either doing an upright row as you suggest or was doing something else that wouldn't be described as a Sumo Dead Lift High pull by the powers that be at CrossFit.

As far as hundreds of olympic weightlifters learning their moves without the SDHP, I understand. People used to make cars without airbags too, but then we saw a better way and adapted, there is no reason to believe that this shouldn't be done in the exercise phys world either. As far as what Rip says, (before I go here, let me say that I worship that guy for his integrity, candor and most of all his knowledge) lot's of people teach things differently. He has historically taught the hang power clean differently than Coach Burgener, does that make him wrong... I doubt it. CrossFit has found this movement as a good one to bring a smooth transition to the Oly lifts for non athletes. Teaching a 50 year old woman is different than teaching the starting QB at Rice. We find this to be more efficient and, as I explained before, more functional/ intuitive.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:30 PM   #19
George Noble
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
George,

When we teach the SDHP at certs (by the way, the HP stands for High Pull, so it would make sense that you would see it that way, however the impetus for the movement are the hip extensors through the core and to the traps, not the arms. As far as seeing someone hold the top position in videos, I haven't seen them and really don't care what they show... There are millions of videos showing bad form, even if it is called good form. The top position is meant to be reached and released immediately. The videos where people stop at the top are just showing the top of the move.
Well yes, but when the video in question is commentated on by Greg Glassman it seems reasonable to me that it's fairly representative of CrossFit.

Quote:
I am in no way trying to be rude, but you asked a question and several people have provided you similar answers. If you are looking for validation of how this movement is messed up, look somewhere else.
I'm not looking for validation here. There are plenty of places where I could just say "CrossFitters do this, look how stupid they are" and I would get positive responses even if what I described wasn't really stupid. I'm just asking what I believe to be reasonable, honest questions. So far I've been getting reasonable, honest answers, which is great. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

Quote:
As far as people performing an upright row, last time I read Muscle and Fiction, this was an isolated contraction of the traps with zero hip involvement whatsoever. If this is what you saw, then the person was either doing an upright row as you suggest or was doing something else that wouldn't be described as a Sumo Dead Lift High pull by the powers that be at CrossFit.
OK, I suppose it wasn't a strict upright row as a bodybuilder would want to do it, but it certainly looks closer to an upright row than it does to being a clean that doesn't rack, which is what I understand a high pull to be.

Quote:
As far as hundreds of olympic weightlifters learning their moves without the SDHP, I understand. People used to make cars without airbags too, but then we saw a better way and adapted, there is no reason to believe that this shouldn't be done in the exercise phys world either. As far as what Rip says, (before I go here, let me say that I worship that guy for his integrity, candor and most of all his knowledge) lot's of people teach things differently. He has historically taught the hang power clean differently than Coach Burgener, does that make him wrong... I doubt it. CrossFit has found this movement as a good one to bring a smooth transition to the Oly lifts for non athletes. Teaching a 50 year old woman is different than teaching the starting QB at Rice. We find this to be more efficient and, as I explained before, more functional/ intuitive.
Well if I remember correctly from a video I saw, Coach Burgener teaches the snatch first in his progression, not the SDLHP. I'd love to have someone who knows him better clear that up, and I'd also very much like to hear the opinions of highly regarded WL coaches because I am sceptical of the necessity of this movement.
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Old 10-10-2008, 12:58 PM   #20
Robert Callahan
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Re: What are the 9 Foundational Movements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
Well here's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq_aiYLzgk8 - wfs) of Coach explaining it. The girl on the box with the PVC pipe is doing largely what you described, but the guy working with 50 kg is clearly doing upright rows, even in the versions labelled "good." The group workout seems to be a mixture.

Also of note is that all examples are held at the top. You can't hold a bar in that position without using your delts, which in my limited knowledge is bad prep for a clean.

The first time I saw SDLHPs was in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1vxLltVyUQ (wfs). They are certainly CrossFitters (so no need for inverted commas) and they are certainly doing upright rows.
No where in that first video does Coach say that the movement should be broken down into two distinct motions, first a sumo deadlift, then an upright row. In fact he says that momentum from the hip action should carry the weight up most of the way with little contribution from the arms. This is exactly like a Clean. And in the workout video the SDHP they do are one continuous movement where momentum is carrying the weight up. It is never separated into a Deadlift and then a Row, in either videos, so I do not understand how you thought it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
Well if I remember correctly from a video I saw, Coach Burgener teaches the snatch first in his progression, not the SDLHP. I'd love to have someone who knows him better clear that up, and I'd also very much like to hear the opinions of highly regarded WL coaches because I am sceptical of the necessity of this movement.
Coach Burgener uses the "burgener warm-up" in which he compartmentalizes the movements that make up the snatch into several distinct movements. You start with a shrug, then a high pull, then a muscle snatch, then a snatch balance, then a hanging snatch. So he does not start teaching the movement with a full snatch. that is wrong

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Last edited by Robert Callahan : 10-10-2008 at 01:01 PM.
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