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Old 07-28-2011, 11:13 AM   #251
Jim Denofa
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Tamara Cohen View Post
CrossFit is more than an activity. It is an organization that certifies people to instruct an activity. That is why you have a Level 1 cert and pay an affiliation fee, isn't it?
So is being an RKC, so is being a USAW weightlifting coach, so is holding an NAS sanctioned strongman contest, so is hosting or running an IPF powerlifting meet. But you don't put down those activities because people are making money off of them do you? And there are varying levels of injuries all the time in all of those sports.

I was doing CrossFit for a couple of years before I got certified etc. I could go to an Elite FTS training seminar and put that in my bag of tricks too, but what does it mean? Does Elite FTS own powerlifting? Does CrossFit own high rep box jumps or 30 snatches for time? No and No. Can you do 30 snatches as fast as possible and call it Snatchfit and get rhabdo? Sure.
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:15 AM   #252
Matt Thomas
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
Granted, he has scores of screen shots from a vast variety of sources but anecdotal reports does equate to clinical data.
That's very true, but like Emily said that doesn't mean there isn't something significant here to look at. How can you scoff at anecdotal evidence when we're on a message board for a fitness program that was designed around anecdotal evidence and often dismisses clinical data as having any value?
 
Old 07-28-2011, 11:18 AM   #253
Lawrence "Bo" Boland III
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Jim Denofa View Post
Can you do 30 snatches as fast as possible and call it Snatchfit and get rhabdo? Sure.
Holy ****, I have myself a new gym name.
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:22 AM   #254
Jim Denofa
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
Mark, of course data collected on forums is not going to give us a good scientific analysis of rates of rhabdo across a population as a whole. However, they do tell us that rhabdo happens more frequently than one or two cases mentioned in the Crossfit Journal, that rhabdo happens to people who do not fall into the category of "former athletes who haven't been training for a while," that rhabdo happens to people who are well-hydrated, and it begins to show a pattern of the types of exercises that lead to rhabdo and other injuries.

Would you be able to publish that in a peer-reviewed journal? Of course not. Does that mean there isn't something to noting that if a particularly high percentage of one type of injury are preceded by a certain type of exercise, then perhaps a coach should keep that information in mind when programming? Well, if I owned a business and people paid me $$$ to get them fit and not injured, I would err on the safe side.

Bryan, I directed Jim to that forum to refute his claim that Crossfit doesn't lead to injury. Furthermore, you've been a participant in that thread and know that while AW can grandstand he also offers legitimate physiological analysis on why certain types of exercises (such as ones that emphasize the eccentric portion of movements) are more likely to cause muscle breakdown and why things like kipping pull-ups and overhead KB swings are more likely to lead to SLAP tears. Though with the latter I think any layman can figure that one out just by looking at the bottom position of the kipping pull-up and the top of the KB swing . . .
I don't know when I ever said CrossFit does not lead to injury. Anything can lead to an injury. CrossFit is included under the umbrella of: anything. You can get injured tying your shoes in traffic or sneezing.

Look, I am not in agreance with alot of the things that has happened to CrossFit as of late, like those goofy bent arm to press kettlebell swings just to get the damn thing 100% vertical. That is why I don't do them!!! Get it?
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:28 AM   #255
Mark Ritchie
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
Mark, of course data collected on forums is not going to give us a good scientific analysis of rates of rhabdo across a population as a whole. However, they do tell us that rhabdo happens more frequently than one or two cases mentioned in the Crossfit Journal, that rhabdo happens to people who do not fall into the category of "former athletes who haven't been training for a while," that rhabdo happens to people who are well-hydrated, and it begins to show a pattern of the types of exercises that lead to rhabdo and other injuries.

Would you be able to publish that in a peer-reviewed journal? Of course not. Does that mean there isn't something to noting that if a particularly high percentage of one type of injury are preceded by a certain type of exercise, then perhaps a coach should keep that information in mind when programming? Well, if I owned a business and people paid me $$$ to get them fit and not injured, I would err on the safe side.
What I was addressing specifically is the statement like the one you make "...a particularly high percentage of one type of injury are preceded by a certain type of exercise..."

We do not, and cannot, know that there is a "high percentage" from the forums, nor can the data "show a pattern". We don't have enough data, and the plural of anecdote isn't data. So no, we don't know much from the forums at all in terms of statistics or percentages. We can't even really know which exercises REALLY are at risk, since our dataset isn't complete. We only know what people report. For all we know, non-reported cases on other exercises could have higher rates. Like spinning. I know about GHDs, etc., but spinning? I understand the mechanism of injury, but until I heard about it I would not have thought it was common in spinning classes.

What we do have is a lot of disconnected case studies. Some of the information is useful, and you are correct that anyone involved in training should be paying attention and learning from the stories. But that is all they are -- stories. Good things to keep in mind, but useless in terms of knowing how often things are actually happening. We don't have the data.

There are lots of cases of false correlations and false trends with limited data. I don't know the rates, and my point was none of us know. But, as you note, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be paying attention, and doing our best as trainers or athletes to avoid injury.
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:34 AM   #256
Jamie Gowens
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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I think it is amusing how you feel that CrossFit should take some measures to prevent injuries. CrossFit is an activity!!!!!!!! Football is an activity!!!! Fottball does not do anything but be played and watched. You don't think there are guys who play tackle football without pads and get concusions or get paralyzed? I think you are talking about the NFL, not football, big difference.
My people and I play spring/fall softball. It's a co-ed beer league. We're doing it for no other reason than to a) gain exposure for the gym, and b) have some fun and let off steam.
The men take the game FAR more seriously than the females, including throwing the bat on an out, and yelling at the umpire, gettin' all KINDS of riled up.
The men hit hard, place hitting, and aren't afraid to use their size to their advantage. Usually a female pitches (because she's got experience using a softball). The distance to the mound is substantially shorter in softball than baseball. Those guys are using ridiculously expensive high tech bats. Equipment that's perfectly legal, and well within their rights to purchase, btw.


This is REC LEAGUE CO ED SOFTBALL. We go have beers before, during, and after the games.


The females started getting hurt because of the males' competitive exuberance. Seriously hurt, broken ribs and wrists, concussions, etc.

What did the city do?

Instituted a "halo" for the pitcher. If a line drive is hit within the "halo", regardless of intent or lack thereof, the batter is ejected from the game.
Instituted a "no crash" rule. If a female is in the baseline and male runs into her, he's out. Intentional or not, he's out. If he's THAT competitive about it, he can slide, but he can't crash into the female in the baseline.
Composite bats are now against the league rules. Bring a composite bat into the batter's box, you'll be ejected for the season.

The league took measures to protect the participants. Not unreasonable measures, just common sense measures.

That's what happens when 'regular people' play sports.
 
Old 07-28-2011, 11:34 AM   #257
Tamara Cohen
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Jim Denofa View Post
So is being an RKC, so is being a USAW weightlifting coach, so is holding an NAS sanctioned strongman contest, so is hosting or running an IPF powerlifting meet. But you don't put down those activities because people are making money off of them do you? And there are varying levels of injuries all the time in all of those sports.
Why are you so opposed to someone trying to make something BETTER?

I don't care what the sport or organization is. I would still look at the risk/reward analysis. As a USAW coach, if my weightlifters kept getting injured, it would be a really good idea for me to take a look at my programming and coaching techniques, would it not? As an intelligent person, I would do that. I don't know why you think what I'm saying only applies to CrossFit.

You have your standards for what constitutes too much risk in your gym, and I have mine.
 
Old 07-28-2011, 11:38 AM   #258
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

I tried telling folks about data a while back Mark...Especially when that thread linked on Catalyst was being talked about, you're spittin in the wind my man.

------------------

I see it like this, there's nothing in the message boards right now that would drive HQ to change anything they are doing, nothing.

There is enough anecdotes in the message boards for an individual trainer to decide to change what they are doing though. Simply because it's easier to change a single person's mind with a story or multitude of stories.

You aren't going to change a large company with anecdotal evidence, unless public opinion begins to affect the pocket book or brand image. If you think the message boards are at a point where they are doing that, you have an unrealistic idea of how much any of our posts mean to anybody.
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:42 AM   #259
Daniel Dean
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
His "evidence" is purely self reported posts, comments on message boards or "Dude, I can't move my arms" as proof positive of rhabdo.
There is no doubt that Andrew has an axe to grind, but the vast majority of rhabdo count posts I have seen in that thread have been people who were hospitalized and had CK tests done that clinically confirmed rhabdo. There are many more "Probable rhabdo?" posts where people simply reported t-rex arms or extreme DOMS and swelling that he hasn't included in the count.
 
Old 07-28-2011, 11:42 AM   #260
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Gillian Mounsey Article

Funny most of the people that reject anecdotal evidence about injuries are the same that tout it when it comes to the benefits of Crossfit. Look a Vickie Ellison for example. She refuses to believe the anecdotal evidence that Crossfit can injure you yet wants us all to believe how awesome it is because she's in good shape now or whatever.
 
 


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