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Old 02-24-2014, 10:08 AM   #11
Jeff Enge
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

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Originally Posted by Alex Chaney View Post
I understand where your coming from, it seems that most people who don't have the experience get into the olympic lifts and then abandon the slow lifts finding themselves stalling on the snatch and c&j.
Well, they're obviously doing it wrong then.

I'm just saying, I have yet to find a lifting (or even CrossFit) coach worth their salt that will (1) let a client learn the full weightlifting movements without first demonstrating proficiency in the requisite positions, and (2) Have a weightlifting program that doesn't include a healthy dose of straight-up strength work.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:21 AM   #12
Eric Montgomery
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

Alex, give this a read (WFS, aside from a few cuss words). Somewhere out there is a Glenn Pendlay article that says essentially the same thing.

The notion that American weightlifters don't pay attention to strength is just silly. For another thing, you can't ignore the fact that American lifters are subject to offseason drug testing schedules that lifters in most other nations don't face, so that factor has an impact on their ability to get stronger and handle more intensive workloads.

It's also silly to say you need a 400lb squat before you start doing Olympic lifts.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:28 AM   #13
Struan Potter
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

Having a big squat doesn't mean much if their technique sucks. Being strong is important, but having excellent technique and being able to use that strength is more important. It's easy to get strong, getting really good technique is not and takes years to develop under the eye of an experienced coach. How do you think Szymon Kolecki could C&J more than he could front squat? (232.5 C&J with a 230 FS).

The sport is competed in the snatch and the clean & jerk, not the squat. This is why I don't understand why people do high intensity squat programmes like smolov on top of their regular weightlifting training.

Kendrick Farris is one of the strongest weightlifters in the world, yet he will not place top 5 at the world championships in the total due to technical issues, particularly in the snatch (I'd more than happy if he proves me wrong).

Setting prerequisite strength levels before starting is not conducive to becoming a good lifter. If anything it's better to start if they're weak to ingrain good technique with weights that are higher %s to their strength levels.

That said, you will not be competitive, particularly at the elite level, if you're not strong. You can't snatch 150kg+ if you aren't.

Also quoting Mark Rippetoe in a post on Weightlifting does not give your post more credibility.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:19 PM   #14
Jason Denny
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

A year ago I would have agreed with you...hell, I made similar claims. I respect Rip as a coach and his books are great, but I think he is wrong about the condition of US Olympic Weightlifting...or at the very least, over simplified the problem/solution. I spent most of last year following 5/3/1 and was very successful with it. However, for the last 4 months, I've been following Catalyst Athletics programming to work on my classic lifts. I am a strong guy. At 41, 6'2" 245lbs, my deadlift is 565lbs, bench 350, press 205, back squat 425. With all of that, my snatch is only 215 and my clean and jerk 265ish. Technique is holding me back...along with some range of motion issues but I've come a long way in just a few months. With Catalyst I back squat 2 times a week and front squat 1, along with the regular lifts. MUCH more than my powerlifting cycles and it shows. I like getting stronger but it has only done so much for me in the classic lifts...months/years of training the movements is the key. On a side note, I went from low bar/wide stance to high bar/regular stance and WOW what a difference. I squat more and more comfortable.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:27 PM   #15
Jason Denny
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

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Originally Posted by Struan Potter View Post
Having a big squat doesn't mean much if their technique sucks. Being strong is important, but having excellent technique and being able to use that strength is more important. It's easy to get strong, getting really good technique is not and takes years to develop under the eye of an experienced coach. How do you think Szymon Kolecki could C&J more than he could front squat? (232.5 C&J with a 230 FS).

The sport is competed in the snatch and the clean & jerk, not the squat. This is why I don't understand why people do high intensity squat programmes like smolov on top of their regular weightlifting training.

Kendrick Farris is one of the strongest weightlifters in the world, yet he will not place top 5 at the world championships in the total due to technical issues, particularly in the snatch (I'd more than happy if he proves me wrong).

Setting prerequisite strength levels before starting is not conducive to becoming a good lifter. If anything it's better to start if they're weak to ingrain good technique with weights that are higher %s to their strength levels.

That said, you will not be competitive, particularly at the elite level, if you're not strong. You can't snatch 150kg+ if you aren't.

Also quoting Mark Rippetoe in a post on Weightlifting does not give your post more credibility.
I think that is USA's weakness...starting the training at an early age. Here, the strong kids go NFL, NBA, MLB...where the money is at. USAW does not get the pick of the litter, unlike other countries. China, Russia, North Korea, etc, get the best kids at early ages. They get 10 years of training before they step foot in their first meet. Didn't Holley Mangold start lifting just a few years before the 2012 Olympics?
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:38 PM   #16
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

Which cycle are you following Jason?
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:46 PM   #17
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

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I think that is USA's weakness...starting the training at an early age. Here, the strong kids go NFL, NBA, MLB...where the money is at. USAW does not get the pick of the litter, unlike other countries. China, Russia, North Korea, etc, get the best kids at early ages. They get 10 years of training before they step foot in their first meet. Didn't Holley Mangold start lifting just a few years before the 2012 Olympics?
Also I think we need to stop using the NFL as an excuse for why we suck at weightlifting. Sure a lot of the big strong guys go there. But 1) MOST of the big strong guys don't make it to the NFL and 2) there are not a lot of guys in the NFL that are closer to 5'10, 5'9" and shorter, but they can be super strong for their weight. The NFL does not explain why they aren't in WL for the USA.

I went through some Army training with a guy that played ball for Wake Forrest. He even made it to some practice squads for several NFL teams. But at 5'8" and between 190 he wasn't quite fast enough to make it. However, he was still a 500+ squatter and could hang power clean 350 for reps. We need a mechanism to find and recruit people like this.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:57 PM   #18
Drew Watson
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

I wish people would stop quoting riptoe's stance on oly lifting.
I also wish riptoe would stop voicing his opinion on things he doesnt understand.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:07 PM   #19
Jason Denny
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

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Also I think we need to stop using the NFL as an excuse for why we suck at weightlifting. Sure a lot of the big strong guys go there. But 1) MOST of the big strong guys don't make it to the NFL and 2) there are not a lot of guys in the NFL that are closer to 5'10, 5'9" and shorter, but they can be super strong for their weight. The NFL does not explain why they aren't in WL for the USA.

I went through some Army training with a guy that played ball for Wake Forrest. He even made it to some practice squads for several NFL teams. But at 5'8" and between 190 he wasn't quite fast enough to make it. However, he was still a 500+ squatter and could hang power clean 350 for reps. We need a mechanism to find and recruit people like this.
Good point. The sport of weightlifting is unknown here it seems. I tell someone I weightlift they think I mean I curl weights and bench press.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:14 PM   #20
Jason Denny
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Re: The Importance of Strength in Olympic Weightlifting and Other Power Output Activi

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Which cycle are you following Jason?
At the moment I am week 7 of his 12 week basic cycle. Before that, 8 week standard cycle. Very smart programing.
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