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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-19-2014, 12:52 PM   #21
Matt Thomas
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Yes, but the point is that strength and conditioning can be applied to specific skills and athletics if you practice specifically to transfer those qualities.

There is a reason that athletes in :
- track and field
- wrestling
- martial arts
- baseball
- football
- basketball
- rugby
- soccer
- parkour
- ice skating
- skiing
- etc. etc. etc.
all strength train as part of their overall training. Because that strength is transferable to your specific sport with PRACTICE. And as has already been said, a stronger athlete is a better athlete. If this is not true someone go tell every professional sports team and athlete in the world that they've been wasting their time.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:18 PM   #22
Vickie Ellickson
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Herald View Post
Vickie, technique is a major factor when fighting the lesser trained individual, but Even Carlson Gracie Sr. Admitted that technique being equal, strength prevails.
That's common sense, but I'm glad Carlson weighed in on the right side of that one.

Quote:
An individual with higher squat and deadlift numbers does not make him stronger than me. It means he's stronger at the squat and deadlift.
So let me put this another way... Do the guys you manhandle have the same level of skill in grappling that you do?
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:35 PM   #23
Jeremy Schultz
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

I guess I don't see the point of this entire argument. If the OP wants to do MovNat, then he can do all the MovNat that he wants.

The "best fitness program" is the 64 million-dollar question - no one will ever agree.

Like Matt said, "functional" fitness completely depends on what you are training for. I am far more likely to squat with a barbell than I am to climb a tree - so what good does creating the skill of tree-climbing do for me?

And like Jeff said, very few people are going to have the acreage/equipment/accessibility to do MovNat, at least compared to doing CF. I have a few thousand acres of state land behind my house, but even with that, I don't plan on jumping around on ice-covered rocks or climbing snowy trees in the 10-dregee weather. At best, I would be able to do it 6-7 months per year, when I can do CF in my garage 12 months per year - so which program will help me more?

Nothing wrong with MovNat - but my problems are that it's fairly impractical and the "functional" aspect is highly debatable.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:24 PM   #24
Bob Herald
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Good point Dean! Matt, nobody is arguing that strength is not transferable or important.. And there is gravity on Earth Vicky, sometimes.

Some day one of us may wind up in a hunger games scenario where mov-nat would save your life. Then the joke would be on us.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:47 PM   #25
Matt Thomas
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Then we'll all wish we had practiced more with a bow and arrow.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:03 PM   #26
Andrew Bell
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Well...if you want opinions, when have I ever held back? Lol

If it is what you want to focus on, go for it. Why should our opinions stop you? To be honest, it looks really boring to me. Dragging a log is farm labor, not a workout. Crawling through brush is a huge pain in the butt. Doing muscle ups on tree limbs is pointless unless you are climbing the tree.

If you want to do that stuff I got 250 acres you can come down and "wod" on that need some trees cleared on, and some fence built. You could use your hands to dig if you didnt want to use a shovel/spade/phd. I would advise you wear shoes or boots, scorpions and fire ants are pretty bad out there, have some ant bites that are from last Halloween.

Like I said, if that is your kind of thing, go enjoy it. Seriously. One man's treasure right?

As for the whole "if we all got stuck in a hunger games" deal. Ask any solider who has seen the front line, no amount of "training" can prepair you for that moment.

On edit:
Is this seriously "training" for this stuff? Serious question....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CrZkoRp...%3DCrZkoRp8-Fw (wfs)
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Last edited by Andrew Bell : 02-19-2014 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:45 AM   #27
Chris Ross
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Thanks for the opinons Andrew.
I agree the 'Intermediate' level 'workout' looks pretty tame.

Whilst I've cited movnat as my example numerous times in this thread my idea for training is more trelated to the basic human movement patterns I have mentioned, which can all be trained with much more intensity and progressive resistance. Eg. A climbing day might be indoor routes for 90 minutes working intermediate level routes; lift and carry day might be heavy DLs and farmers carry; running might be hill sprints; grappling might be 3 x 10 minute rounds; swimming might be tread water in clothes for 30 min or swim 1km.

All of the above are driven more by the skill and for me would be more enjoyable than a typical CF wod.

But don't get me wrong. I like alot of ideas in CF. I like the idea of not bring a specialist particularly.

When I think about fitness training I ask myself 'what skills do I think every human should have?' Then I tailor my trainingto aquire those skills by doing those activities, as opposed to focusing on getting stronger or more cardio.the skill.drives the fitness.improvements anyway. Lifting and carrying heavy stuff is a skill just like climbing

Last edited by Chris Ross : 02-20-2014 at 04:01 AM. Reason: more info to add
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:43 AM   #28
Chris Ross
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

I would also add that clearly what i have listed above would not likely get me as strong as a CFer, or as good on a benchmark WOD, but....

I would wager that:
- whilst I might not climb as well as a specialist climber I could expect to outswim him over a 1km course, or, outrun him on a 5km trail run
- I might not out deadlift a powerlifter but I could expect to outclimb them on an intermediate level indoor rock climbing route, or, beat them in a grappling contest
- I might not beat a swimmer but I could expect to farmers carry more than them, or, you get my point.....

So to me this would be the ultimate form of GPP. Rather than focusing on strength and work capacity as being the bedrock of GPP, I would make skill training the bedrock, then use these skills (appropriately programmed) to increase any and all of max strength, power, endurance, flexibility etc

I'd call my system Cross-Skills! I'll get my non-existent marketing team onto that one.....
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:25 AM   #29
Drew Cloutier
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ross View Post
I would also add that clearly what i have listed above would not likely get me as strong as a CFer, or as good on a benchmark WOD, but....

I would wager that:
- whilst I might not climb as well as a specialist climber I could expect to outswim him over a 1km course, or, outrun him on a 5km trail run
- I might not out deadlift a powerlifter but I could expect to outclimb them on an intermediate level indoor rock climbing route, or, beat them in a grappling contest
- I might not beat a swimmer but I could expect to farmers carry more than them, or, you get my point.....

So to me this would be the ultimate form of GPP. Rather than focusing on strength and work capacity as being the bedrock of GPP, I would make skill training the bedrock, then use these skills (appropriately programmed) to increase any and all of max strength, power, endurance, flexibility etc

I'd call my system Cross-Skills! I'll get my non-existent marketing team onto that one.....
Its precisely THESE comments that make people think certain training programs are retarded, these comments are also ones that drive me bananas.

Saying stuff like that is SOOOO idiotic, do you REALLY think for example that that swimmer does farmers walks or even gives a ***** about them? Saying you would be better then someone at something they don't care or do is just silly, and similar to boasting you are the smartest on the short bus.

Would you really go up to a powerlifter and ask what kind of climbing routes he likes or what his marathon time is?

Not saying don't traing the way you want, but don't try to validate it with this ridiculous point. If you enjoy climbing and swimming and etc and are not a fan of barbell work then by all means go do what you like!! but don't go around bashing others who don't share your interests/views.

I personally hate running, and despise drowning i mean swimming and do them mainly because of work and to not be completely 1 sided, so I definitely do not share your interests and would rather bang away at the weight for 2hrs a day then go climbing trees and treading water for 30mins (btw 30mins with clothes on is pretty ambitious! remember doing treading water in uniform minus boots and no one could do 30mins, not saying it can't be done, would need to work up to it, unless you weight 130-140 soaken wet)

Also i'd be interested how you would program the different aspects, because most of what you talked about is endurance, balance, agility and some flexibility I don't really see being able to train certain things without resorting to more traditional methods.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:43 AM   #30
Dean Lehmkuhler
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Once skills are learned, there isn't that much work required to maintain them. Certainly they can always be improved but once you move beyond a basic competency, it takes a lot of work to improve to an advanced level and I just don't think the return on investment of time/effort is going to be very high.

As an example, I swam competitively as a kid and not much since yet I can still jump in and produce a reasonable effort over a mile if needed (limiting factor would be specific conditioning rather than skill). Same thing with rock climbing, and golf. Skills don't require a lot of maintenance...

To the OP, I get what you're saying. Fitness does not necessarily indicate skilled movement. I do think a basic skill set is very valuable just like I think GPP is very valuable. Put them together and you've got a person who can really get a lot out of a physical lifestyle. I disagree with your premise that training skills will produce significant fitness gains compared to fitness training.

Last edited by Dean Lehmkuhler : 02-20-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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