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Old 11-04-2007, 11:44 AM   #11
Scott Clark
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

I don't necessarily think non-Zoners are lazy, some of us just aren't anal about nutrition to that degree. I have never bashed the science behind the zone, I just could not get that wrapped up in things to bother with weighing, measuring, eating by a clock, ect. Not my thing.

Clean, healthy foods works, blocks be damned.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:10 PM   #12
Brad Davis
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Jesse Emers View Post
I'd have to agree with him that people are lazy if they arent zone. I know I am.
You're joking, right? So folks who IF are lazy. Folks who use approximate guidelines are lazy.

I think one could make a better argument that folks who think it matters if they eat 14 or 15 almonds are using precision that has exceeded a point of diminishing return. (I don't know if they have or not--just sayin').
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:40 PM   #13
Alex Europa
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Brad Davis View Post
You're joking, right? So folks who IF are lazy. Folks who use approximate guidelines are lazy.

I think one could make a better argument that folks who think it matters if they eat 14 or 15 almonds are using precision that has exceeded a point of diminishing return. (I don't know if they have or not--just sayin').
No, not joking at all. I will concede that there are some people out there that may not believe in the Zone and say that Paleo (or others) is better for them. OK. However, if you are currently eating Paleo, and haven't tried the Zone because you, "can't be bothered." Then it's my opinion that you're lazy with your nutrition. Don't be insulted by this, my reason is simply because if you are eating Paleo, then you are already spending a decent amount of time in the kitchen cutting, chopping, and preparing all those fruits and veggies. Why not take the extra - what - 5 minutes to make sure you have the proper quantities of everything?

For the record, you can still weigh and measure Zone proportions and IF at the same time. You will deviate from the "don't go longer than 5 hours without eating" rule, but when you are eating, you are "in the Zone." In fact, in the Performance Menu articles the author actually talks about cramming all your blocks (read: Zone) into the 7-8 hours that you are not fasting. IF can be used with any nutritional plan.

If you use approximate guidelines, and aren't weighing, why not? If it's not laziness in the kitchen, then what is it? You don't believe in it? Fine. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Coach, Nicole, Greg A, et al know WAY more about this stuff and have done the experiments...I'll trust what they say about the DIRECT correspondence between weighing and measuring and elite CrossFit performance.

As for your point about precision and diminishing returns, then you haven't watched the Nutrition part 2 video in this month's journal. Coach says exactly that: you can get close on CrossFit's mantra of fruits and vegetables, some meat, nuts and seeds, little starch, and no sugar BUT you cannot be elite without weighing and measuring. Coach's words, not mine (although paraphased as I'm at work and don't have access to the video here).

Either way, eat what/how you want. It's your life, and your experiment. If what you do works for you, GREAT! If you've wondered, what if?, then give the Zone 2 weeks and decide for yourself if you don't feel better and start performing better. I know it has worked for me, like Coach said it would - just like CrossFit.

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Last edited by Alex Europa; 11-04-2007 at 11:43 PM..
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:04 AM   #14
Victor Putz
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

Quote:
1. Disinclined to action or exertion; averse to labor; idle;
shirking work. --Bacon.
[1913 Webster]

2. Inactive; slothful; slow; sluggish; as, a lazy stream.
"The night owl's lazy flight." --Shak.
[1913 Webster]
I would use caution about applying a value-judgment word like "lazy" to anyone taking the initiative to follow any exercise program regularly, much less one as rigorous as crossfit.

There are plenty of reasons not to measure your food, most of which admittedly very little to do with nutrition. For example, my evening meal every day takes place in the college dining hall, which to their credit actually serves pretty healthy food; since I have no storage space or food preparation space, this is the economic best choice. But quite frankly I'm not about to wait until served and then whip out a pocket scale and set of measuring cups and stuff the served food into them in an attempt to measure on the fly while the staff tries to work around me. Does this make me idle or slothful? Am I shirking work by being polite to my fellow diners? How about a person who works all day and wants to eat dinner with their family, the rest of whom might not be interested in a Zone diet--there is in fact a limit to how far you can push this in social settings, "family" being a social setting.

Will this have an impact on someone's ability to be an "elite" athlete? Possibly. But I wouldn't say it makes them "inactive" or "sluggish" or "disinclined to action or exertion" if they, god forbid, had an extra serving of potatoes after cranking out a PR in Fran.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:21 AM   #15
Brad Davis
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Victor Putz View Post
I would use caution about applying a value-judgment word like "lazy" to anyone taking the initiative to follow any exercise program regularly, much less one as rigorous as crossfit.....
That's all I was typing about. One can use lots of adjectives to describe the difference between someone who will use approximate guidelines and someone who will measure everything he or she eats. I can think of many other laziness litmus tests that make A LOT more sense than weighing and measuring portions.

To describe someone who will CF, avoid all neolithic foods in our society, and use approximate guidelines such as the ones at simplefit to determine portions as lazy is ridiculous and insulting in my opinion.
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Old 11-05-2007, 06:35 AM   #16
Alex Europa
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Brad Davis View Post
That's all I was typing about. One can use lots of adjectives to describe the difference between someone who will use approximate guidelines and someone who will measure everything he or she eats. I can think of many other laziness litmus tests that make A LOT more sense than weighing and measuring portions.

To describe someone who will CF, avoid all neolithic foods in our society, and use approximate guidelines such as the ones at simplefit to determine portions as lazy is ridiculous and insulting in my opinion.
OK, why don't YOU Zone then? Do you not believe in it? I can concede the eating in the cafeteria example, especially in a college setting where money is tight.

I realize that lazy is a strong word, and you're right, no CFer is lazy compared to the general public, but how would you describe the difference between a CFer that Zones and a CFer that Paleos? Preference? So Coach's opinion on this doesn't matter? Help me to understand. I'm never to good to admit that I'm wrong, I just need some prodding. Enlighten me.

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Old 11-05-2007, 06:49 AM   #17
Alex Europa
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Victor Putz View Post
I would use caution about applying a value-judgment word like "lazy" to anyone taking the initiative to follow any exercise program regularly, much less one as rigorous as crossfit.

There are plenty of reasons not to measure your food, most of which admittedly very little to do with nutrition. For example, my evening meal every day takes place in the college dining hall, which to their credit actually serves pretty healthy food; since I have no storage space or food preparation space, this is the economic best choice. But quite frankly I'm not about to wait until served and then whip out a pocket scale and set of measuring cups and stuff the served food into them in an attempt to measure on the fly while the staff tries to work around me. Does this make me idle or slothful? Am I shirking work by being polite to my fellow diners? How about a person who works all day and wants to eat dinner with their family, the rest of whom might not be interested in a Zone diet--there is in fact a limit to how far you can push this in social settings, "family" being a social setting.

Will this have an impact on someone's ability to be an "elite" athlete? Possibly. But I wouldn't say it makes them "inactive" or "sluggish" or "disinclined to action or exertion" if they, god forbid, had an extra serving of potatoes after cranking out a PR in Fran.
For the record, IN MY OPINION, unless you have a valid reason (and I honestly believe that your case is an exception to the rule where you have no opportunity to prepare your own Zone meals), not weighing your food IS shirking work. I realize that we can (and probably will) go around and around on this - no hard feelings on this end. While it was not my intention to insult anyone, I won't apologize for my opinion or calling it like I see it. Everything in this world is relative: are CFers lazy, obviously not....but compare individuals within the community, and you can still have "lazy" CFers. Another example that to me is along the same lines (although a completely different conversation) is someone that substitutes "Grace" for "Isabel" because they don't like to snatch (shoulder injuries not withstanding). Coach dictates a WOD and either you conform or don't...to me, if you don't do it simply because you don't like that particular exercise or workout, then you're still lazy. Even if you do ANOTHER (even a more difficult overall) WOD. So, maybe lazy isn't the right word...could you help me identify a word that better explains my feelings on this?

Alex
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:01 AM   #18
Craig Van De Walker
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

I think it is just a matter of degrees

If you want to give yourself the best chance of success you should work to maximize your workout, recovery, diet (oversimplification)

On the diet leg according to coach you should do the Zone diet, which for a period of time say two weeks and periodically thereafter, you should weigh and measure all of your food. This helps you avoid the very human weakness of self deception or just bad guessing!

Maybe your metabolism and overall diet are pretty darned good, maybe you need to slightly modify zone to get best results (which you can do).

But hypothetically what if you are leaving even 5% "on the table" (or 10%, 20%, 30%) as far as performance goes? Is that acceptable to you?

Maybe the zone does not work for 100% of the population, but from what I've heard it is a prudent thing to at least trial, if your goal is the performance...
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:01 AM   #19
Brad Davis
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
OK, why don't YOU Zone then? Do you not believe in it? I can concede the eating in the cafeteria example, especially in a college setting where money is tight.

I realize that lazy is a strong word, and you're right, no CFer is lazy compared to the general public, but how would you describe the difference between a CFer that Zones and a CFer that Paleos? Preference? So Coach's opinion on this doesn't matter? Help me to understand. I'm never to good to admit that I'm wrong, I just need some prodding. Enlighten me. ...
LOL, I don't think I'm qualified to enlighten anybody, just offer my opinion. I believe in the Zone concepts, just skeptical about the required precision.

I haven't heard or read what Coach says about this, but have only read about some of the statements in a few of these posts. I've thought a few times that he might've been talking about the difference between "doing very well" and "being elite" but that's a guess.

I don't think Paleo folks are a homogenous group, so I don't have a way to describe the difference. I personally try to get close to Zone proportions without measuring everything. I measure items that I really don't want to over-do, nuts and fruit for example. Even then, my idea of "measurement" isn't precise. For example, I look at the chart to see how many carb blocks a half an apple is and eyeball whether it's a medium sized one or whatever. As another example, yesterday I ate some roasted chicken breast. The serving was about the size of my palm, so I just ate it without measuring it. It seemed silly to me to pick the meat off the bones and put it on a scale first. If it was a half-block over, what should I do? Throw it away or try to save it? So what if I get 5-10g more protein than 5 blocks? It's impossible for me to believe that this would have a measurable effect.

I've tried measuring much more precisely before and really didn't see any performance difference, didn't feel any different, and didn't gain or lose weight. My assumption is that my eyeballing and SimpleFit approximations are close enough so that anything more precise than that is exceeding a point of diminishing return.

I'm a good sport, though, so I think I'll go a month measuring everything and log the results.
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:09 AM   #20
Alicia Michel
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Re: Which diet is more effective in given cases, Paleolithic diet or Zone diet?

Before this explodes....

how about taking an entirely different approach and encouraging people to try out what Coach suggests, rather than imposing standards and making what Coach says "the law" so that people who don't conform to those standards or break the law are lazy or XYZ.

There are many ways to get to a destination, some efficient and some not-so-efficient, and Zone is just one of them. So is the WOD.

Alex, I acknowledge that you have a right to your opinion. However, imposing it on others is another matter and the latter approach to CF is the kind that usually makes people annoyed or upset and turn away from CF.
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