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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 05-28-2014, 05:03 PM   #11
Steven Wingo
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

Imperfections in judging and refereeing are a part of sports from the pee wee level all the way up to the pro sports leagues with full time paid refs and instant replay. Learn to live with it or get out. It is part of being an athlete.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #12
Helen M Brennan
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Imperfections in judging and refereeing are a part of sports from the pee wee level all the way up to the pro sports leagues with full time paid refs and instant replay. Learn to live with it or get out. It is part of being an athlete.
this ^^^^^ and just get over it.. life is happening while all the whining is going on
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:50 PM   #13
Michael Steiger
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

Of course it is not a sport…just like golf, tracy & field, and swimming are not sports. They are athletic competitions. Sports are baseball, basketball, and football where your physical actions directly effect the actions or movement of your competition.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:52 PM   #14
Luke Sirakos
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Imperfections in judging and refereeing are a part of sports from the pee wee level all the way up to the pro sports leagues with full time paid refs and instant replay. Learn to live with it or get out. It is part of being an athlete.
That's not what the article is even about, it is more about the lack of professional judges than the calls the current judges made. No professional sport uses amateur judges or refs and I can see how one would have issues, especially when there is video proof that would sway someone from not being in the games to being in the games but it is denied. Crossfit is far from a competition in a barn, they should work to move other aspects of the competition towards the level the games have reached.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:11 AM   #15
Greg Spaight
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

There is an awful lot of $$ paid by CFers to participate in the open and very little cost for HQ to run the open relative to the revenue generated. There is no good reason that some portion of this revenue stream could not be utilized to pay for truly qualified judges for the regionals.
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:42 AM   #16
Andrew Bell
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

I think the best thing I have seen said about all this is the following blog:
http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2014/05...t-over-it.html (somewhat wfs)

To quote the part in particular:
Quote:
...you know what it is? Growing pains, as Crossfit finds its groove as it tries to become a sport in its own right. Every sport has them, as they try to iron out what works and what doesn't work. In Crossfit's case, it will probably take a little longer than usual, because it is a sport that revolves around competing in unknown events that you probably haven't trained for.
We are seeing it this year with the no repping judges. I haven't read the guy from South America's part 2 on the topic, but I can tell you that from last year things may not look all that different, but from 2 years ago you can see some changes. From 3 years ago it's like a whole new world, and from 4 years ago when it was still at The Ranch, I mean come on.

It's going to take time, let's let it develop. Enough with the griping about paying judges, let's move on, HQ is aware of your/our thoughts on it.
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Old 05-29-2014, 12:22 PM   #17
Christopher G. Woods
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Spaight View Post
There is an awful lot of $$ paid by CFers to participate in the open and very little cost for HQ to run the open relative to the revenue generated. There is no good reason that some portion of this revenue stream could not be utilized to pay for truly qualified judges for the regionals.
Greg, where exactly would HQ find these "qualified" judges?

I don't presume to know how long you have been doing CrossFit, or your knowledge of it's competitive side. As for myself, I have been a part of the community since 2006; I competed at the Games in 2008, Mid Atlantic Regionals in 2009 and 2011, Central East Regionals in 2010, as well as competing in and judging numerous local competitions.

You have to appreciate that competitive CrossFit is still in it's infancy. Do you think that baseball, football, weightlifting, powerlifting, or any other sport just popped up out of nowhere with a fully developed culture of qualified officials? We are only now getting to the point in the evolution of competitive CrossFit where we even have consistent rules and standards of movement from year to year.

Just for the sake of argument, let's look at the practicality and cost of HQ having "professional" officials for Regionals and the Games.

First, let's think of how many of these professional judges we would need. HQ is currently running up to 4 regionals each weekend; there are usually 10 lanes running on each event; some events, team workouts in particular, require multiple judges in each lane; you would also need head judges for each team, as well as enough alternates to ensure that your officials aren't stuck on the floor for hours at a time, and to allow for sudden illness or injury. Let's say 30 judges per officiating crew; times 4 crews means we need a minimum of 120 trained officials. (There is actually one weekend where they do 5 Regionals, but we'll just say that they split the crews into 5 teams of 24 for that weekend, and maybe reinforce them with some HQ staffers)

Next, let's look at the practicality of finding individuals to fill these roles. Obviously, you would need these individuals to be familiar with CrossFit movements, so you would primarily be pulling from your existing community of coaches and affiliate owners, as they do currently. You would next need to test these individuals to ensure that they have a proper understanding of the standards of movement. Judges are currently required to complete the online judges test, so there is some verification of knowledge already in place. A higher level of rigor could certainly be implemented, but if you want to start fully training these officials, you are going to add significant cost to the process.

If HQ were to start sanctioning independent regional and local events, and require sanctioned events to use and pay certified judges, then you could possibly create a new weekend specialty cert that people would pay to attend. Outside of that eventuality, I don't see people paying out of pocket to attend a judging cert, if the only opportunity to make use of that certification is during Regionals and the Games. That being the case, providing full hands on training to 120 individuals is not a simple undertaking. First, you need to get them in front of you. That means you either have to go to them or you have to bring them to you; either way, that costs money. You'll also need a staff to actually carry out the training (obviously, you could tap HQ staff trainers to do this). My guess is that you could be looking at spending anywhere up to $250k to train your officials.

Now, I think the biggest problem with creating teams of officials would be finding people who can actually commit the time. Think about it. Regionals are three days long; tack a day onto each end for travel, and that's a five day commitment for each Regional. If you're sticking to our concept of four teams of officials that travel around to the various Regionals, then you need 120 people who can basically give you their entire month of May. Go back to our initial talent pool of coaches and affiliate owners; how many of those people can really afford to take off an entire month? How much would you have to pay them to make it worth their time? $5000? $10000? Now we're talking about spending $600k-$1.2 million on judges salaries, and we haven't even paid to get them to the events yet.

Let's look at those travel expenses. You're sending teams of 30 people to various locations, including international destinations. You are also putting them into hotels for a week at a time in each location (because you're not going to pay an extra airfare to send them home for two days each week). That's a lot of cake. 4 weeks of regionals, plus the trip home, means 5 plane tickets per judge; that's 600 plane tickets between 120 judges. If you can keep it to $800 a ticket (which is optimistic, with all of those international flights), you are spending $480k on airfares, and you haven't even housed them yet. Let's say that you have the right distribution of genders and/or couples on your teams to put 2 judges to every hotel room; that's 60 rooms for 24 nights (checking into the first on May 8th and out of the last on June 2nd). If you can keep your hotel rates to $120/night (still being optimistic), that comes out to another $172.8k.

If you total that up, it means that you could be spending up to $2 million to have professional judges at Regionals. Yeah, no problem.
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Old 05-29-2014, 01:03 PM   #18
Greg Spaight
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
Greg, where exactly would HQ find these "qualified" judges?

I don't presume to know how long you have been doing CrossFit, or your knowledge of it's competitive side. As for myself, I have been a part of the community since 2006; I competed at the Games in 2008, Mid Atlantic Regionals in 2009 and 2011, Central East Regionals in 2010, as well as competing in and judging numerous local competitions.

You have to appreciate that competitive CrossFit is still in it's infancy. Do you think that baseball, football, weightlifting, powerlifting, or any other sport just popped up out of nowhere with a fully developed culture of qualified officials? We are only now getting to the point in the evolution of competitive CrossFit where we even have consistent rules and standards of movement from year to year.

Just for the sake of argument, let's look at the practicality and cost of HQ having "professional" officials for Regionals and the Games.

First, let's think of how many of these professional judges we would need. HQ is currently running up to 4 regionals each weekend; there are usually 10 lanes running on each event; some events, team workouts in particular, require multiple judges in each lane; you would also need head judges for each team, as well as enough alternates to ensure that your officials aren't stuck on the floor for hours at a time, and to allow for sudden illness or injury. Let's say 30 judges per officiating crew; times 4 crews means we need a minimum of 120 trained officials. (There is actually one weekend where they do 5 Regionals, but we'll just say that they split the crews into 5 teams of 24 for that weekend, and maybe reinforce them with some HQ staffers)

Next, let's look at the practicality of finding individuals to fill these roles. Obviously, you would need these individuals to be familiar with CrossFit movements, so you would primarily be pulling from your existing community of coaches and affiliate owners, as they do currently. You would next need to test these individuals to ensure that they have a proper understanding of the standards of movement. Judges are currently required to complete the online judges test, so there is some verification of knowledge already in place. A higher level of rigor could certainly be implemented, but if you want to start fully training these officials, you are going to add significant cost to the process.

If HQ were to start sanctioning independent regional and local events, and require sanctioned events to use and pay certified judges, then you could possibly create a new weekend specialty cert that people would pay to attend. Outside of that eventuality, I don't see people paying out of pocket to attend a judging cert, if the only opportunity to make use of that certification is during Regionals and the Games. That being the case, providing full hands on training to 120 individuals is not a simple undertaking. First, you need to get them in front of you. That means you either have to go to them or you have to bring them to you; either way, that costs money. You'll also need a staff to actually carry out the training (obviously, you could tap HQ staff trainers to do this). My guess is that you could be looking at spending anywhere up to $250k to train your officials.

Now, I think the biggest problem with creating teams of officials would be finding people who can actually commit the time. Think about it. Regionals are three days long; tack a day onto each end for travel, and that's a five day commitment for each Regional. If you're sticking to our concept of four teams of officials that travel around to the various Regionals, then you need 120 people who can basically give you their entire month of May. Go back to our initial talent pool of coaches and affiliate owners; how many of those people can really afford to take off an entire month? How much would you have to pay them to make it worth their time? $5000? $10000? Now we're talking about spending $600k-$1.2 million on judges salaries, and we haven't even paid to get them to the events yet.

Let's look at those travel expenses. You're sending teams of 30 people to various locations, including international destinations. You are also putting them into hotels for a week at a time in each location (because you're not going to pay an extra airfare to send them home for two days each week). That's a lot of cake. 4 weeks of regionals, plus the trip home, means 5 plane tickets per judge; that's 600 plane tickets between 120 judges. If you can keep it to $800 a ticket (which is optimistic, with all of those international flights), you are spending $480k on airfares, and you haven't even housed them yet. Let's say that you have the right distribution of genders and/or couples on your teams to put 2 judges to every hotel room; that's 60 rooms for 24 nights (checking into the first on May 8th and out of the last on June 2nd). If you can keep your hotel rates to $120/night (still being optimistic), that comes out to another $172.8k.

If you total that up, it means that you could be spending up to $2 million to have professional judges at Regionals. Yeah, no problem.
That is a exceptionally well thought out argument, and probably exactly what HQ went through in their decision making process.

I don't think it should be the money issue ( number of people that signed up for the open multiplied by the fee equals way north of $2MM ), but regarding the number of qualified folks and the time commitment I can see the flaw in my argument.

And you are correct, in the grand scheme of things, CF is small potatoes and an infant sport.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:44 PM   #19
Steven Wingo
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
Greg, where exactly would HQ find these "qualified" judges?

I don't presume to know how long you have been doing CrossFit, or your knowledge of it's competitive side. As for myself, I have been a part of the community since 2006; I competed at the Games in 2008, Mid Atlantic Regionals in 2009 and 2011, Central East Regionals in 2010, as well as competing in and judging numerous local competitions.

You have to appreciate that competitive CrossFit is still in it's infancy. Do you think that baseball, football, weightlifting, powerlifting, or any other sport just popped up out of nowhere with a fully developed culture of qualified officials? We are only now getting to the point in the evolution of competitive CrossFit where we even have consistent rules and standards of movement from year to year.

Just for the sake of argument, let's look at the practicality and cost of HQ having "professional" officials for Regionals and the Games.

First, let's think of how many of these professional judges we would need. HQ is currently running up to 4 regionals each weekend; there are usually 10 lanes running on each event; some events, team workouts in particular, require multiple judges in each lane; you would also need head judges for each team, as well as enough alternates to ensure that your officials aren't stuck on the floor for hours at a time, and to allow for sudden illness or injury. Let's say 30 judges per officiating crew; times 4 crews means we need a minimum of 120 trained officials. (There is actually one weekend where they do 5 Regionals, but we'll just say that they split the crews into 5 teams of 24 for that weekend, and maybe reinforce them with some HQ staffers)

Next, let's look at the practicality of finding individuals to fill these roles. Obviously, you would need these individuals to be familiar with CrossFit movements, so you would primarily be pulling from your existing community of coaches and affiliate owners, as they do currently. You would next need to test these individuals to ensure that they have a proper understanding of the standards of movement. Judges are currently required to complete the online judges test, so there is some verification of knowledge already in place. A higher level of rigor could certainly be implemented, but if you want to start fully training these officials, you are going to add significant cost to the process.

If HQ were to start sanctioning independent regional and local events, and require sanctioned events to use and pay certified judges, then you could possibly create a new weekend specialty cert that people would pay to attend. Outside of that eventuality, I don't see people paying out of pocket to attend a judging cert, if the only opportunity to make use of that certification is during Regionals and the Games. That being the case, providing full hands on training to 120 individuals is not a simple undertaking. First, you need to get them in front of you. That means you either have to go to them or you have to bring them to you; either way, that costs money. You'll also need a staff to actually carry out the training (obviously, you could tap HQ staff trainers to do this). My guess is that you could be looking at spending anywhere up to $250k to train your officials.

Now, I think the biggest problem with creating teams of officials would be finding people who can actually commit the time. Think about it. Regionals are three days long; tack a day onto each end for travel, and that's a five day commitment for each Regional. If you're sticking to our concept of four teams of officials that travel around to the various Regionals, then you need 120 people who can basically give you their entire month of May. Go back to our initial talent pool of coaches and affiliate owners; how many of those people can really afford to take off an entire month? How much would you have to pay them to make it worth their time? $5000? $10000? Now we're talking about spending $600k-$1.2 million on judges salaries, and we haven't even paid to get them to the events yet.

Let's look at those travel expenses. You're sending teams of 30 people to various locations, including international destinations. You are also putting them into hotels for a week at a time in each location (because you're not going to pay an extra airfare to send them home for two days each week). That's a lot of cake. 4 weeks of regionals, plus the trip home, means 5 plane tickets per judge; that's 600 plane tickets between 120 judges. If you can keep it to $800 a ticket (which is optimistic, with all of those international flights), you are spending $480k on airfares, and you haven't even housed them yet. Let's say that you have the right distribution of genders and/or couples on your teams to put 2 judges to every hotel room; that's 60 rooms for 24 nights (checking into the first on May 8th and out of the last on June 2nd). If you can keep your hotel rates to $120/night (still being optimistic), that comes out to another $172.8k.

If you total that up, it means that you could be spending up to $2 million to have professional judges at Regionals. Yeah, no problem.
Some people don't think through these details before throwing out arguments about what should be done. It is easy to criticize, but quite another thing to find workable solutions--as you have pointed out.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:49 PM   #20
Luke Sirakos
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Re: CrossFit is not a sport

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Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Some people don't think through these details before throwing out arguments about what should be done. It is easy to criticize, but quite another thing to find workable solutions--as you have pointed out.
If you want to be big time it costs a lot of money. Crossfit makes a lot of money and wants to continue growing so they need to adapt and need the games to become a more professional event. To do that requires spending money, just like every other professional sport. I don't know their revenue and their expenses but it seems from the outside like they are doing pretty well as a growing business so they can only stand behind the garage type atmosphere for so long.
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