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Old 07-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #41
Michael Travis
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
You take an exercise with a limited set of smallish muscle groups that fatigue quickly, and make it a total body dynamic exercise with speed, coordination, agility, accuracy, and powerful hip and leg utilization. More importantly, you're moving the same load (your bodyweight) the same distance, but with a higher rep frequency, i.e. higher power output for longer durations/reps. Yes, this is a legit reason to do jumping pull-ups also, but you lose a lot of the neuromuscular skill components that a continuous kip requires, and will have a hard time coupling it with other lower body exercises due to fatigue. Also, the dynamic loading on the shoulder and lats at the bottom of a continuous kip, especially butterfly kip, is pretty high and cannot be duplicated by jumping pull-ups.
Are you trying to say that the back (which I believe you are targeting w/ strict pull-ups, the lats specifically) is a smallish muscle group that fatigues quickly? Just trying to clarify...
 
Old 07-09-2010, 12:05 PM   #42
Dimitri Dziabenko
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

Advanced Crossfitters are quite capable of doing strict pull ups/weighted pull ups etc..

If your argument is that, in beginner Crossfitters, a trainer should focus on developing the strict pull up before the kipping pull up in WODs, you can argue that.

If you are trying to argue that the kipping pull up has no merit, this is a losing argument, because it does, particularly for metcon.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 12:14 PM   #43
Steve Kaspar
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

where's that video that shows a guy doing deadhang pullups (i think it was 20)and then the coach saying how much energy he used, then the guys does kipping pullups( i think 20) and the coach shows how much more energy was used. lots of stats and great info in that video.... but i cant find it at all..looked everywhere...
 
Old 07-09-2010, 12:30 PM   #44
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I gotcha, my bad.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 01:11 PM   #45
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post
Again, no. You are conflating mass with weight.

On top of that, you are changing the inertia part of the equation (which works against you in a pullup) and replacing it with momentum (which works for you).

Again, it is less work, done faster.

Back to you.
Jeez I go away for one hour and this thread is getting even more out of hand. Well I hate to get all nerdy, but I am not conflating mass with weight, they are equivalent concepts in this context of vertical motion at this fixed distance in the earth's gravitational field.

I understand that inertia and momentum are not the same. Inertia is literally mass. It works against you no matter what type of exercise or motion you are doing, in any direction, with or without gravity. It is the basis for Newton's First Law. What you seem to not understand is that momentum has components, vertical and horizontal (in this case forwards and backwards) and neither work for you because a pull-up is a cyclical movement that involves a short and periodic change in direction/velocity (=change in momentum). Let's focus on the vertical component.

For half the distance of the movement the vertical component of momentum is positive (you are moving upward/your velocity is directed upward), and for half of the distance it is negative (you are moving downward/you velocity is directed downward). We have both positive and negative velocity at two distinct points in a cyclical movement.. what does that mean? Why, at two points in the movement that velocity must necessarily be zero. How does one overcome a point of zero momentum? Newton's First Law says: force! How much force? Newton's Second Law says: that depends on how quickly we want to accelerate it (F=m*a). So, if the (vertical) velocity is zero at both ends of the movement, and somehow I am doing the movement faster using one technique (kip) than another (strict), well by golly I necessarily must have applied greater force to that mass in order to do so (F=m*a=m*dv/dt). Where did the force come from that caused that greater acceleration and thus faster rep cycle? Good question, the horizontal component! How does that work? Well, it's complex because the movement we call a "kip" is literally a wave of energy being directed upward by the sequential extending and flexing of the spine, coupled with carefully timed flexions and extensions of the surrounding joints (hips, knees). However, the specific calculation of this is ultimately irrelevant because we are only concerned with mechanical work. All you need to know is that energy is conserved, and that whatever vertical advantage is conferred by the kip is not because you're pulling upward harder with your lats or biceps, but because the kip/whip is directing horizontal energy along a wave propagating in the vertical direction (which way do you push/pull with your hand on a rope in order to get it to wave-propagate horizontally? Up and down!).

Work is the dot product of the force vector and the path (distance) vector. Dot product is a fancy way of saying that the respective components of force and distance contribute to energy by multiplying against one another directly. The point of this is to say that there is a horizontal component to the kip, and one could calculate it by observing the horizontal displacement of the c.g. during the movement (in addition to the vertical), which in sum would account for the missing energy that makes the kip a faster and more powerful movement.

That was fun! We'll see if any of this sinks in, .
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:13 PM   #46
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Michael Travis View Post
Are you trying to say that the back (which I believe you are targeting w/ strict pull-ups, the lats specifically) is a smallish muscle group that fatigues quickly? Just trying to clarify...
Only compared to the hips and legs, which are what the kip utilizes to relieve the lats and biceps of their otherwise impossible task (e.g. 100 consecutive pull-ups).
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #47
Jeremy Galo
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
Jeez I go away for one hour and this thread is getting even more out of hand. Well I hate to get all nerdy, but I am not conflating mass with weight, they are equivalent concepts in this context of vertical motion at this fixed distance in the earth's gravitational field.

I understand that inertia and momentum are not the same. Inertia is literally mass. It works against you no matter what type of exercise or motion you are doing, in any direction, with or without gravity. It is the basis for Newton's First Law. What you seem to not understand is that momentum has components, vertical and horizontal (in this case forwards and backwards) and neither work for you because a pull-up is a cyclical movement that involves a short and periodic change in direction/velocity (=change in momentum). Let's focus on the vertical component.

For half the distance of the movement the vertical component of momentum is positive (you are moving upward/your velocity is directed upward), and for half of the distance it is negative (you are moving downward/you velocity is directed downward). We have both positive and negative velocity at two distinct points in a cyclical movement.. what does that mean? Why, at two points in the movement that velocity must necessarily be zero. How does one overcome a point of zero momentum? Newton's First Law says: force! How much force? Newton's Second Law says: that depends on how quickly we want to accelerate it (F=m*a). So, if the (vertical) velocity is zero at both ends of the movement, and somehow I am doing the movement faster using one technique (kip) than another (strict), well by golly I necessarily must have applied greater force to that mass in order to do so (F=m*a=m*dv/dt). Where did the force come from that caused that greater acceleration and thus faster rep cycle? Good question, the horizontal component! How does that work? Well, it's complex because the movement we call a "kip" is literally a wave of energy being directed upward by the sequential extending and flexing of the spine, coupled with carefully timed flexions and extensions of the surrounding joints (hips, knees). However, the specific calculation of this is ultimately irrelevant because we are only concerned with mechanical work. All you need to know is that energy is conserved, and that whatever vertical advantage is conferred by the kip is not because you're pulling upward harder with your lats or biceps, but because the kip/whip is directing horizontal energy along a wave propagating in the vertical direction (which way do you push/pull with your hand on a rope in order to get it to wave-propagate horizontally? Up and down!).

Work is the dot product of the force vector and the path (distance) vector. Dot product is a fancy way of saying that the respective components of force and distance contribute to energy by multiplying against one another directly. The point of this is to say that there is a horizontal component to the kip, and one could calculate it by observing the horizontal displacement of the c.g. during the movement (in addition to the vertical), which in sum would account for the missing energy that makes the kip a faster and more powerful movement.

That was fun! We'll see if any of this sinks in, .
Nice geek mauricio. As an engineer, I always enjoy a good physics explanation
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:56 PM   #48
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Nice geek mauricio. As an engineer, I always enjoy a good physics explanation
Thanks. This thread has saved me from dozing off after a long morning of classes. Nerd rage FTWakeup .
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:07 PM   #49
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I never understand why people throw out the push press whenever someone questions the kip. The rarely disputed utility of the push press is the result of the way it is most often used: low reps, high weight, similar to olympic lifting, to develop an explosive hip opening. The kip is used to perform high rep sets for conditioning. 21 kips for time no more makes you explosive than does 21 cleans for time using some significantly sub-maximal load. Until people start strapping on 150lbs weight vests and do 5 sets of kip doubles, or some other similar protocol, and demonstrates some positive adaptation, the comparison between the push press and the kip is apples to oranges.

Regardless, whatever benefits the kip may offer in theory, the result of its implementation in practice is countless new trainees flopping around on the bar doing their kips but unable to understand why they can't do a single deadhang. Someone presents this problem on this message board multiple times each week.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 02:12 PM   #50
Scott A Martin
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Allan Jackman View Post
CF is about maximizing "work".
No it's not. If it were, we would never perform front or overhead squats, since we can move a lot more weight in the same amount of time with a back squat. We'd probably never do ANY upper body movements since the lower body will almost always be able to perform more work.

Clearly, CF recognizes that it's not all about maximizing work. And pull ups are arguably one of the many cases where the less work deadhang variant is better for GPP than the more work kip variant.
 
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