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Old 02-14-2010, 10:41 AM   #11
Wayne Riddle
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Re: good calories bad calories

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Do we really have to go through this again?
If you want to, sure.

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The Western diet is unhealthy, no argument there, but the mere presence of grains is not the reason.
I don't disagree with that, I was responding to a post with the information I had. I would argue the amount and type of grains Americans tend to consume is a factor in our health.
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:11 AM   #12
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: good calories bad calories

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Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
I don't disagree with that, I was responding to a post with the information I had. I would argue the amount and type of grains Americans tend to consume is a factor in our health.
Are you counting high fructose corn syrup as a grain? If you replaced all the HFCS with cane sugar -- while leaving everything else the same -- the "amount of grains" would go down, but I doubt the overall health of Americans would improve.

As Pollan has pointed out, the problem with declaring any single ingredient (or macronutrient) "bad" (or "good") is that ingredients don't exist in isolation. Preparation makes a huge difference. The other elements of the meal make a huge difference. Someone who eats Paleo, for example, has not only eliminated grains, but is probably eating more vegetables and is probably eating higher quality ingredients. They've largely eliminated processed food, and may have reduced their calorie intake. All of those changes are probably beneficial, but none of them really has anything to do with grains per se.

Katherine
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Old 02-14-2010, 01:51 PM   #13
Wayne Riddle
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Re: good calories bad calories

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As Pollan has pointed out, the problem with declaring any single ingredient (or macronutrient) "bad" (or "good") is that ingredients don't exist in isolation.
Agree, to a point. It boils down to what one considers "good" and "bad". If something offers no or very little nutritional value I wouldn't call it "good". Is it bad? Maybe, maybe not, but it isn't doing anything to help you. I will add I tend to agree with Pollan in that we should eat food, not nutrients.

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Preparation makes a huge difference. The other elements of the meal make a huge difference. Someone who eats Paleo, for example, has not only eliminated grains, but is probably eating more vegetables and is probably eating higher quality ingredients.
Agree again. The same for those cultures that still eat some grains. It isn't a main part of their diet. The Okinawan people eat rice, but much less than the Japanese and even then vegetables make up a much larger part of their diet. You could then compare the Okinawan and Japanese people and see which group tends to be healthier.

I still eat grains, but watch the type I eat and they don't make up a large part of my diet. For example a typical day might be the two slices of bread I used to make a sandwich. Since I watch what I eat and how I prepare the food the grains I do get in a day I'm not going to sweat
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Old 02-14-2010, 04:28 PM   #14
Christie Warner
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Re: good calories bad calories

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The same for those cultures that still eat some grains. It isn't a main part of their diet. The Okinawan people eat rice, but much less than the Japanese and even then vegetables make up a much larger part of their diet. You could then compare the Okinawan and Japanese people and see which group tends to be healthier.t

This is a good point. Okinawans eat mostly fresh fish, pork, vegetables, seaweed, and green tea, while also getting plenty of exercise. They do eat rice but in lower amounts and the rice is not like that of our culture. For instance, the rice does not undergo much processing, obviously, which leaves lots of the original fiber intact. As a whole, the high omega-3s these people ingest are mostly responsible for their health and freedom from free radicals-- that in addition to absolutely NO HFCS, partially hydrogenated this and that (trans fats). All in all, these grains are much less worse than our western diet of processed grains (usually consumed in high portions), WHEAT, sugar, etc; especially in the small amounts consumed by the Okinawans. Plus, I tend to think gluten is more of the enemy than fresh, plant-based carbohydrates.

Where we make the mistake as Americans is trying to mimic these diets, ie. Okinawans, by applying OUR rice and whole grains to the equation. (For example, see! whole grain bread IS OK!!) We must remember, these people are most likely eating a long, wild rice for which they simply boil and ingest. Our processed whole grains cannot account for the any beneficial dietary affects that are seen with these people.

This is an interesting article on the Okinawa diet and also the Kitavan diet, which includes Associated Press sources.

W/F/S

http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2009...okinawa-diets/

Last edited by Christie Warner : 02-14-2010 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:25 PM   #15
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: good calories bad calories

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Where we make the mistake as Americans is trying to mimic these diets, ie. Okinawans, by applying OUR rice and whole grains to the equation. (For example, see! whole grain bread IS OK!!) We must remember, these people are most likely eating a long, wild rice for which they simply boil and ingest. Our processed whole grains cannot account for the any beneficial dietary affects that are seen with these people.
Asians have been cultivating rice for thousands of years. It's no more a "wild" plant than wheat or corn. Moreover, many Asian cultures view brown rice as animal feed, unfit for human consumption. "Their" white rice is just as highly polished as ours.

(See also the picture at the top of the link you posted: sashimi on a bed of white rice.)

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 02-14-2010 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 02-14-2010, 05:39 PM   #16
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: good calories bad calories

it's a great book. Read it & make an opinion for yourself.
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:10 PM   #17
Christie Warner
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Re: good calories bad calories

OP, I would recommend Protein Power Lifeplan for a good read, too. I like how it dives into more of the science behind the claims. With time, you'll figure out what you choose to believe and choose not to believe.

Also, you could try asking the guys and girls on the performance menu forum. They have well-versed and well-experienced nutrition gurus (doctors, etc) who are generally not looking for a ****ing contest. Some of them post here, just not as avidly. Good luck!

w/f/s http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/index.php

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Old 02-15-2010, 02:03 PM   #18
Hanneke Schiffleger
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Re: good calories bad calories

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Read it and make up your own mind. But don't make it your only source of information: read the people who think Taubes is full of it, too.

Katherine
This is a good example of that! (w/f/s)
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Old 02-15-2010, 05:47 PM   #19
Wayne Riddle
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Re: good calories bad calories

You could also read this from Robb Wolf (WFS).
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:14 AM   #20
Darryl Shaw
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Re: good calories bad calories

This is still the best critique of GCBC I've seen -

"The more I read of Good Calories, Bad Calories, the more I think Taubes is a supercilious ignorant twat. He's got literally EVERYTHING wrong and anybody relying on 1930's textbooks to make a point is just too stupid to deal with." - Lyle McDonald.

That's from post #77 in this thread if anyone wants to read the whole debate - link (wfs)
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