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Old 05-01-2010, 02:19 PM   #1
Jon Yeo
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RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

As I want to have the greatest convenience and minimal overhead in my workout, it'd be good if I could do away with plates and a belt to do pull-ups and ring dips weighted.

It's easy for pull-ups: just do the one arm variation. But obviously dips can't be done that way. Full rom handstand pushups, the last of the trifecta for my upper body workout can be almost done one-armed by resting the other on an elevation I guess.

So my qns. is since RTO dips are so much harder than the regular, can I just do away with the latter (weighted) for my dips movement, and also to not need additional equipment?

My current guess: 25 RTO dips != 5 130kg (70kg BW + 60kg plates) regular ring dips in terms of raw pressing strength development.

Thanks.

Last edited by Jon Yeo : 05-01-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:18 PM   #2
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

"25 RTO dips != 5 130kg (70kg BW + 60kg plates) regular ring dips in terms of raw pressing strength development."

25 reps is not a strength work out
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:28 PM   #3
Jon Yeo
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
"25 RTO dips != 5 130kg (70kg BW + 60kg plates) regular ring dips in terms of raw pressing strength development."

25 reps is not a strength work out
I know that it's endurance and not strength.

However, I once read one of Blair Robert Lowe's post where he mentioned that some gymnastic people said that if one could do 20 full rom proper HSPUs, one could roughly perform a 1RM military press of 1.5xBW.

So there seems to be a correlation between reps and max. strength.

Or is there not?
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:32 PM   #4
Steven Low
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

The strength development is similar yes. You can sub one for the other, but it would be a good idea to train both.

Fully RTO dips (90 degrees past parallel) are probably about as hard as nearly +50-75% bodyweight dip.

Also, if you were interested in weighting ring dips they actually get easier with heavy weight because there is less wobble in the rings. The greater weight means the vertical displacement from the rings wobble is significantly decreased due to the inward forces from gravity.

Basically, up near +100% bodyweight dip for bars and rings are nearly the same in terms of strength.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:02 PM   #5
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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However, I once read one of Blair Robert Lowe's post where he mentioned that some gymnastic people said that if one could do 20 full rom proper HSPUs, one could roughly perform a 1RM military press of 1.5xBW
Mr. Glassman is noted for saying this, I did not create this conjecture.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:19 PM   #6
Kevin Simons
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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Originally Posted by Jon Yeo View Post
So there seems to be a correlation between reps and max. strength.

Or is there not?
There is a correlation, but in my experience it has, for the most part, worked in the opposite direction. High rep sets (especially anything over 20) have never done much for my 1RM. On the other hand, heavy work to increase that top end strength makes a light weight feel even lighter and higher reps become more manageable. Others may have different experiences though.

Also I'm interested in what Glassman said about the military press and the hspu. Can someone point me to where he said that? I assume this is freestanding, but I wonder if he meant shoulder-to-bar or forehead-to-ground.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:27 PM   #7
Jon Yeo
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
The strength development is similar yes. You can sub one for the other, but it would be a good idea to train both.

Fully RTO dips (90 degrees past parallel) are probably about as hard as nearly +50-75% bodyweight dip.

Also, if you were interested in weighting ring dips they actually get easier with heavy weight because there is less wobble in the rings. The greater weight means the vertical displacement from the rings wobble is significantly decreased due to the inward forces from gravity.

Basically, up near +100% bodyweight dip for bars and rings are nearly the same in terms of strength.
At this point I cannot even begin to imagine doing RTFO dips! But I'm glad strength development is similar. Thanks for the help.

Some qns. about one arm HSPUs (wall-assisted):
1. Should the non-pressing hand be placed on an elevation or against the adjacent wall - just for support so you don't topple sideways.
2. If this is known, approx. how many full rom HSPU should one be able to do to attain the strength to do a one arm HSPU?
3. Can one arm HSPUs be done full rom? I can imagine that it'd be rather awkward.

Some additional misc. qns:
4. Is doing jumping pistols bad for the joints?

5. Can weighted pistols - wearing a weighted backpack; holding plates/dumbells - be a good replacement for standard barbell back squats (not referring to those done with hardcore weights) for someone not into extreme strength/mass for lower body?

6. I'm thinking of adding pistols to my sole lower body/conditioning exercise - tabata sprints. Is this a good combi.? Which one should I focus on more? Currently this is my workout schedule:

Mon, Wed, Fri: Upper body strength training (pulls, dips, hspus, muscle-ups)
Tues, Thurs: L-sit/v-sit ring supports
Mon - Fri: tabata sprinting (always after strength training)

Would it be a good idea to do the tabata 1, 3, 5 and pistols 2, 4 instead?


Pardon the many qns. and thanks in advance; I just find that you're very knowledgeable about these stuff!

Last edited by Jon Yeo : 05-01-2010 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:29 PM   #8
Jon Yeo
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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Originally Posted by Blair Robert Lowe View Post
Mr. Glassman is noted for saying this, I did not create this conjecture.
Yes, that's why I was careful in wording that statement to prevent possible misunderstanding
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:33 PM   #9
Jon Yeo
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

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Originally Posted by Kevin Simons View Post
There is a correlation, but in my experience it has, for the most part, worked in the opposite direction. High rep sets (especially anything over 20) have never done much for my 1RM. On the other hand, heavy work to increase that top end strength makes a light weight feel even lighter and higher reps become more manageable. Others may have different experiences though.

Also I'm interested in what Glassman said about the military press and the hspu. Can someone point me to where he said that? I assume this is freestanding, but I wonder if he meant shoulder-to-bar or forehead-to-ground.
I surmise that there probably is a correlation, but the gains in maximum strength that way is less than that of heavy lifting. But I guess I'm stating the obvious.

I think Glassman was more likely referring to HSPUs and not HeSPUs.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:32 AM   #10
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: RTO dips vs. heavy weighted regular ring dips

Glassman was talking about HSPU on parallettes or rings done without an assist such as the legs on the wall or straps.

So far, I don't think there has been any proof of a One Arm HSPU, I don't think there has been even one on just to head against a wall, less done in a free handstand. There have been some unsubstantiated claims with no response.

Jumping pistols are fine so long as you can do them without incident. There is some danger with a fall if you're doing them up to a height or land wrong of course.

I like weighted SLS, I've seen a guy named Marlon on GB do about 115 I think in a front rack. I could never get it to work racking it on my back.

Honestly, I think they may be easier if I were to just hold dumbbells but it's not like I have a stack of DB and there may be a limit to what I can hold onto. I haven't tried them with a weight vest or belt (as I have neither though I could probably rig up some way to hang them on my body).

Backpack may be difficult like racking it on your back. The weight ends up off balancing you as it's behind the center of your foot.
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