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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 09-12-2009, 04:34 PM   #51
Justin Lascek
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Dave Winchester View Post
I understood it to mean,
  • A person who's strength progress on the lifting days had stalled/slowed but remained a weakness in metcons
  • Had enough experience to bring full intensity to the workouts
  • Had enough proficiency in the strength movements where technique wouldn't be a limiting factor

Whether they had some numerical metric, I'm not sure, but that's what I got from reading pages 2-3 of the article.
Thanks for the research on that article Dave.

I would assume Dave isn't too far off in his interpretation of the material, so I'll comment.

The last two bullet points have to do with what the person knows. The "Strength Bias" is a bit more involved than standard CrossFit.com stuff, so they would want people to handle this, especially mechanically. That makes sense.

This, however, does not have anything to do with stress. Furthermore, the first bullet point clearly indicates that an individual meeting this criteria is still a novice strength trainee. They may be experienced with doing CrossFit, but if someone has strength as a limiting factor, or they only strength train when it comes up periodically, they are, by definition, a novice strength trainee.

There may be other stipulations to the "Strength Bias" program, but I'm just commenting on the variables presented here.

I hope this clears up the distinction of terminology.
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:44 PM   #52
Justin Lascek
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Sean J Hunter View Post

Isn't it fair to say that essentially Beginner programs are linear and are watching for injuries caused by weakness and bad form where as intermediate programs need to periodize to combat adaptation.

That may be an over simplification perhaps?

Sean
I'm understanding your use of "beginner" as "novice strength programs". Being a novice does not have to do with what you know about lifting, how long you've been doing it, or how strong you are. It has to do with how you adapt to stress. I just worked with a guy a few minutes ago that, after working with Rip the other day, realized he still had much to learn. He will adapt to stress the same way I did earlier this year, albeit slower since he is in his forties.

In this case, your highlights of a novice program are off. Regardless if someone is novice or intermediate, the program is created to induce a correct amount of stress to efficiently produce an adaptation. In other words, it gets someone as strong as possible in the most efficient amount of time. A novice gets to do that faster than the intermediate. The main goal in either case is gaining strength. Usually for the novice they will need to gain muscular bodyweight to do so. These are the goals of such programs.
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:47 PM   #53
Sean J Hunter
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Justin Lascek View Post
Hey Sean,

2. An intermediate strength trainee has very specific variables that are quantified. They cannot adapt to stress on a daily basis because the amount of stress that they can incur is higher relative to their hypothetical genetic potential, thus their program allows them to adapt on a daily basis. So you see, there is no level or weight requirement to get to this point. The weight on the bar is irrelevant. It is entirely dependent on how that individual adapts to stress.

3. I never said a change in programming wasn't required. I'm saying that the distinction of calling someone "intermediate" is entirely blurred because no one is defining this term.

We may be able to call someone in the CF Wichita Falls program intermediate, assuming they don't have any ancillary aspects of recovery that are limiting their adaptation of strength. However, if we did call someone in such a scenario an "intermediate", it would only apply to the CF Wichita Falls program. It would not apply to the "Strength Bias", or any other variation because the definition changes since the stress and adaptation processes are different.

The problem with the terms isn't the program, it's that we are mixing different types of adaptations. I've mentioned a few times that I (or others) don't know how to quantify an adaptation to metabolic conditioning. This gets even more complicated since metabolic conditioning's adaptations consist of a collection of adaptations together (or, you could think of it in terms of GPP -- working on more than one physical quality). So trying to make a blanket statement about someone's adaptations when we don't really have a solid way to define it isn't very useful.
Hell Justin,

That was extreemly articulate!

So if I can clarify what we're saying here.

Essentially there are two levels of training
1) Beginner gains
2) Intermediate gains

Beginners will see gains on a linear program. At some level these gains will deminish and a change to a periodized program will be needed to see any more real increases in Limit Strength.

This change tends to happen around the "Intermediate" level but the actual change over point has multipal variables and is different from person to person, but from a planning ahead point of view one can assume that this drop in linear gains will happen around the "900% BW on all 10 lifts (CF intermediate)" level.

So what your saying is the actual level 'intermediate' is not as accurate as, "hey I can no longer see any real gains from a beginners program". I have checked other varibales like form, diet, over training, negative training (i.e. LSD mixed with strength training) and its not any of these so I must need a new program that combats my adaptation level thru periodization.

Am I on track with what you're saying here?

Thanks for your patience.

Cheers

Sean
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:53 PM   #54
Sean J Hunter
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Sorry I just read you last post. I can see that my lack of experiance and underatsning of PT is getting in the way of me understanding what your saying here. Thanks for your patience.

So lets say I am at Intermediate+ level are you saying that beginners program would work for lets say someone like me?

Sean

Surley its as simple as periodized programs combat adaptation better then linear programs, and at some point one will reach a certain percentage of relative strength where only a periodized program will achieve any real gains?

We only put beginners on linear programs cos there easier to understand and do and achieve the same gains as a periodized program becuase a beginner can see gains doing anything cos of the relative distance they are from their genetic potential.

Sean
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:10 PM   #55
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Intermediate to advanced CF'er does not equal novice or intermediate SS lifter. Completely different things.

The first would be someone who might qualify as a L2-3 according to the CFNorth standards provided they could maintain something like 3-1 without falling apart.

Beginning to intermediate Cf'er probably means they could only be considered a novice or beginning lifter by SS standards.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:21 PM   #56
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Sean J Hunter View Post
We only put beginners on linear programs cos there easier to understand and do and achieve the same gains as a periodized program becuase a beginner can see gains doing anything cos of the relative distance they are from their genetic potential.
Beginners can adapt from one workout to the next, and a linear progression takes advantage of that.

It so happens that a linear progression is easier to understand, but that's not the reason why it's a good beginner program.

As for linear progression being "easy to do," that isn't at all the impression I've gotten from people who've done Starting Strength. My understanding is that adding weight to the bar *every* *single* *workout* is wicked hard. But doable for beginners.

Katherine
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:07 PM   #57
Sean J Hunter
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Hey Katherine,

Thanks fo the post, how are you BTW?

Quote:
Beginners can adapt from one workout to the next, and a linear progression takes advantage of that.

It so happens that a linear progression is easier to understand, but that's not the reason why it's a good beginner program.
So why don't we just start them on periodization? WHat are the benefits of linear over period apart from its easier to execute.


Quote:
As for linear progression being "easy to do," that isn't at all the impression I've gotten from people who've done Starting Strength. My understanding is that adding weight to the bar *every* *single* *workout* is wicked hard. But doable for beginners.

Good point. By easier to do I mean, its not as complicated as a periodization program. I know when I hit my first P program it was like "Hell there are numbers and dates everywhere...what the"

Sean

Damn I just realized I have totally hijacked this thread. Sorry guys. Back in my lane. Ignore these Qs I'll ask them when I get around to diving into Strength training a but more.

Cheers

Sean
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:41 PM   #58
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Sean J Hunter View Post
So why don't we just start them on periodization? WHat are the benefits of linear over period apart from its easier to execute.
Faster gains. Linear progression a la Starting Strength adds weight to the bar every single workout. It's a "beginner" program not because it's easy, but because only beginners can adapt that fast.

Katherine
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:00 AM   #59
Ryan Whitley
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Faster gains. Linear progression a la Starting Strength adds weight to the bar every single workout. It's a "beginner" program not because it's easy, but because only beginners can adapt that fast.

Katherine
Yep...and it is a better use of your time. If you can add weight every time you get under the bar then why waste time on "easy" or "light" days? Just keep adding weight until you can't.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:00 PM   #60
Robert Beckett
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Justin Lascek View Post
This leads me to believe that strength is a primarily goal. If that is the case, then why not gain the strength in the shortest amount of time instead of prolonging it?
Sorry; I should have clarified that I was stating a hypothetical to make sure I understood your explanation.

I understood you to mean that if you do the CFWF program, you will stop making linear (strength) gains at lower poundages than if you just did SS alone. Is that what you meant when you said that an "intermediate level" CFWF trainee would not be considered an intermediate strength trainee?

Last edited by Robert Beckett : 09-13-2009 at 02:03 PM. Reason: poor grammar
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