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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-19-2010, 12:43 PM   #211
John Hansen
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Kyle Marston View Post
So apples to apples did you base your opinion of caviston based on seeing him TEACHING the deadlift or PERFORMING the deadlift? What I've read from you is caviston is a poor coach because he can't perform a good deadlift but glassman is a good coach because he can teach the deadlift. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so please tell me if I misinterpreted your comments. I’m not arguing the coaching ability of either, I’m just trying to point out a seeming inconsistency here. I know this is off topic and we're not going to make any progress here but with all of its great attributes the CF community often seems to me to be really inconsistent with the ad hominem thing.
Kyle,
You're correct that there is an inconsistency in his statement. Everyone sees your point, but it's doubtful you are going to get Taylor to concede. Got to remember you are on CF's home turf. Certain folks are going to protect Glassman at all costs and will attack anyone they see as "anti" CF. Probably best to just move on.


Edited to add that while I was writing this, Taylor did concede. Go figure.

Last edited by John Hansen : 02-19-2010 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:50 PM   #212
Darrell E. White
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

It's bad coaching to perform a movement with bad form. Whether you look like a stud muffin or the muffin man (neither of which has any inherent effect on your coaching ability, BTW), if you cannot perform the movement correctly you have no business performing the movement as part of your teaching/coaching/demonstration. It is totally appropriate to use an athlete as a model or demo and teach the movement; doing so and not doing the movement yourself does not make any statement about your ability or inability, quality or lack thereof, as a coach.

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Old 02-19-2010, 12:58 PM   #213
Jay Ashman
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
It's bad coaching to perform a movement with bad form. Whether you look like a stud muffin or the muffin man (neither of which has any inherent effect on your coaching ability, BTW), if you cannot perform the movement correctly you have no business performing the movement as part of your teaching/coaching/demonstration. It is totally appropriate to use an athlete as a model or demo and teach the movement; doing so and not doing the movement yourself does not make any statement about your ability or inability, quality or lack thereof, as a coach.

--bingo
in essence you are right, however; some athletes/clients like to know that the one coaching the movement, at one time or even now, can actually do the workout they prescribe.

I've gotten clients from just working out, they walk up and ask me about my workouts, we talk and they sign up for some sessions. That isn't to say anything but that being your own selling point can be a credible thing for many people.

Of course CF has its selling points in their participants. Glassman doesn't need to go out and prove anything, CF has people like Khalipa, Salo, Wagner, Spealer, etc. that do that job rather well, but when it comes to an independent coach/trainer who chooses to go out on his own without a name attached to him, their initial selling point is proving to everyone that what they do is effective by being an example of that.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:31 PM   #214
Alex Europa
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
It's official, "area under the curve" is a thought experiment, measuring output isn't useful. One less thing to worry about.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/02/...reArticleTitle WFS
Man, I thought this thread was finally going to die...I guess not.

First and foremost, just because an article is in the CFJ DOES NOT make it "official." From the CFJ submission page:

Quote:
It is a chronicle of the empirically driven, clinically tested, and community-developed CrossFit program. Our mission is to provide a venue for contributing coaches, trainers, athletes, and researchers to ponder, study, debate, and define fitness, and thus collectively advance the art and science of optimizing human performance.(Emphasis mine)
Note that ANYONE can submit an article, so long as it meets certain criteria (read: thought provoking and has the potential advance the art/science of performance).

Second, I believe that you're misinterpretting the point of the article. It seems to me that Russel's point is that absolute power is not the goal of CrossFit, improving real-world work capacity is. On page 3 he says,

Quote:
If we only considered power, we should conclude that abandoning handstand push-ups and muscle-ups in favor of snatches and thrusters would lead to better fitness. This, of course, is ludicrous.
Therefore, your assertion that "measuring output is useless" appears to be incorrect. You can (and should) measure the power output of everything that you do and increases in power output within that particular time and modal domain indicate an increase in fitness. And that meshes nicely with IWCABTAMD. We are not looking for ONLY the highest power output possible for any given time domain, but the highest power output possible for any given time AND modal domain.

- Alex
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:45 PM   #215
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

You must also break training for power from demonstrating power.

Take something like a bent over row. While it doesn't produce much power, it can be used as an assistance excersize for the o-lifts, squat and deadlift (helps keep a rigid back position).

If you are a novice, you can increase your power generation from one workout to the next, but as you advance, you can't expect this to keep occurring and you must address weaknesses.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:50 PM   #216
Ewen Roth
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post

Note that ANYONE can submit an article, so long as it meets certain criteria (read: thought provoking and has the potential advance the art/science of performance).
Russell Berger isn't "anyone".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Second, I believe that you're misinterpretting the point of the article. It seems to me that Russel's point is that absolute power is not the goal of CrossFit, improving real-world work capacity is. On page 3 he says,

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFJ
If we only considered power, we should conclude that abandoning handstand push-ups and muscle-ups in favor of snatches and thrusters would lead to better fitness. This, of course, is ludicrous.
Therefore, your assertion that "measuring output is useless" appears to be incorrect. You can (and should) measure the power output of everything that you do and increases in power output within that particular time and modal domain indicate an increase in fitness. And that meshes nicely with IWCABTAMD. We are not looking for ONLY the highest power output possible for any given time domain, but the highest power output possible for any given time AND modal domain.

- Alex
I have no idea how you get from that quote to your conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFJ article
Counting your reps, weighing your barbells, and timing your workouts is really all you need. If you complete the same workout in less time or do more work (reps) in the same time, you have increased the average power in real terms. No other data is required to maximize results.

Many in the CrossFit community, including Coach Glassman, have dug into measuring the power outputs of different athletes in different workouts. The overwhelming conclusion of these analyses is that tracking times and loads provides as much data as we need to develop elite levels of fitness. Secondly, these investigations concluded that calculating actual foot-pounds per minute didnít contribute any additional benefit toward that fitness.
Measuring your workouts=useful
Trying to plot power along a curve=not useful

Is this not what the article says?
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:26 PM   #217
Robert Callahan
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
It's bad coaching to perform a movement with bad form. Whether you look like a stud muffin or the muffin man (neither of which has any inherent effect on your coaching ability, BTW), if you cannot perform the movement correctly you have no business performing the movement as part of your teaching/coaching/demonstration. It is totally appropriate to use an athlete as a model or demo and teach the movement; doing so and not doing the movement yourself does not make any statement about your ability or inability, quality or lack thereof, as a coach.

--bingo
Seriously guys. Here is the video of the DL that supposedly shows how Mr. Caviston is a "bad" coach.

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004644.html (WFS) (it is a link at the bottom and he doesn't preform the lift till about the last 10 seconds of the video)

What he is doing in that video is an odd object lift, not a deadlift. It is more analogous to stone lifting than a barbell deadlift. On top of that the total load for those logs is 185-210lbs, meaning picking up one end is less than 185lbs. Now he (Mr. C) claims to have a max DL of 600lbs IRRC making the one end of the log a trivial weight.

Picking it up with a slightly rounded back is really not that big of a deal. I mean look in the CFJ at articles by Rob Orlando and Kurtis Bowler. Are they doing all their lifting for strong man events with perfect lumbar and thoracic extension? No. Are we harping on them for being bad coaches? NO. It is a function of odd object lifting and life.



I apologize for contributing to this side tracked debate. From the outside these kinds of attacks just work to discredit the people using them. If other coaches have legitimate criticisms of CF then how about we listen to them and respond like adults and have reasonable constructive debate. That way we come through better than when we started in the end. Assuming that all other fitness professionals have no insight and are simply making claims to try and "steal market share" from CF is ludicrous. There is more than enough market to go around in the fitness world and while we all know Mr. Glassman's opinion of exercise science that does not mean we should not keep open minds and always be willing to learn something new and possibly contrary to what we thought before.

Lyle says traditional strength work with traditional aerobic training produces equal or better results for GPP than crossfit. How about instead of having a freak out session and getting all our panties in a wad we take a minute and think about what he said. Is it at all possible that maybe there is the smallest chance he is right? I have learned long ago never to say never. So how would you test it? Maybe try out an 8 week training cycle structured how he says to. Test a few WODs before and after and see how preformance changes.

And really at the end of the day who cares. What if it turns out he is right? There are other reasons people do CF than it effectiveness as a GPP program. For one it is a lot more entertaining than traditional strength training and LSD because of the variety. This is one very important factor to many people doing CF that are not trying to become competitive athletes (aka the majority of CF-ers).

This need to attack anyone seeming to question CF comes across as very defensive and discrediting towards CF.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:58 PM   #218
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Seriously guys. Here is the video of the DL that supposedly shows how Mr. Caviston is a "bad" coach.

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/004644.html (WFS) (it is a link at the bottom and he doesn't preform the lift till about the last 10 seconds of the video)

What he is doing in that video is an odd object lift, not a deadlift. It is more analogous to stone lifting than a barbell deadlift. On top of that the total load for those logs is 185-210lbs, meaning picking up one end is less than 185lbs. Now he (Mr. C) claims to have a max DL of 600lbs IRRC making the one end of the log a trivial weight.

Picking it up with a slightly rounded back is really not that big of a deal. I mean look in the CFJ at articles by Rob Orlando and Kurtis Bowler. Are they doing all their lifting for strong man events with perfect lumbar and thoracic extension? No. Are we harping on them for being bad coaches? NO. It is a function of odd object lifting and life.



I apologize for contributing to this side tracked debate. From the outside these kinds of attacks just work to discredit the people using them. If other coaches have legitimate criticisms of CF then how about we listen to them and respond like adults and have reasonable constructive debate. That way we come through better than when we started in the end. Assuming that all other fitness professionals have no insight and are simply making claims to try and "steal market share" from CF is ludicrous. There is more than enough market to go around in the fitness world and while we all know Mr. Glassman's opinion of exercise science that does not mean we should not keep open minds and always be willing to learn something new and possibly contrary to what we thought before.

Lyle says traditional strength work with traditional aerobic training produces equal or better results for GPP than crossfit. How about instead of having a freak out session and getting all our panties in a wad we take a minute and think about what he said. Is it at all possible that maybe there is the smallest chance he is right? I have learned long ago never to say never. So how would you test it? Maybe try out an 8 week training cycle structured how he says to. Test a few WODs before and after and see how preformance changes.

And really at the end of the day who cares. What if it turns out he is right? There are other reasons people do CF than it effectiveness as a GPP program. For one it is a lot more entertaining than traditional strength training and LSD because of the variety. This is one very important factor to many people doing CF that are not trying to become competitive athletes (aka the majority of CF-ers).

This need to attack anyone seeming to question CF comes across as very defensive and discrediting towards CF.
Robert,
Apparently, I'm ludicrous. If Boyle et al have another, purer motive what is it? If it's no threat to them why the histrionics over it?

In my experience the approach suggested by Mr. McDonald did not produce better results for me. I'll let the Caviston thing go, you may be right. Those logs are indeed odd shaped objects.

Your 2nd to last paragraph was how my opening salvo in this discussion was supposed to sound. I think that is a hugely salient point for me today, without any need for Elite Fitness whatever it means. I think that whole who cares philosophy would be effectively applied to most criticisms of CF and other systems around here. If you like it and it works for you keep doing it until one of those things changes.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:01 PM   #219
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hansen View Post
Kyle,
You're correct that there is an inconsistency in his statement. Everyone sees your point, but it's doubtful you are going to get Taylor to concede. Got to remember you are on CF's home turf. Certain folks are going to protect Glassman at all costs and will attack anyone they see as "anti" CF. Probably best to just move on.


Edited to add that while I was writing this, Taylor did concede. Go figure.

Mr. Hansen,
I don't suppose I could get an honorific out of politeness? How about call me Bob.

Coach Glassman doesn't need my protection, surely. I know some of his friends, they are vastly more capable than I. It's a small concession, not a capitulation.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:12 PM   #220
Alex Europa
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Re: Lyle McDonald on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
Russell Berger isn't "anyone".
True, but this DOES NOT make his article an "official" statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
I have no idea how you get from that quote to your conclusion.
To be clear, I'm not saying that I have an excel spreadsheet of the actual power output (e.g., ft-lbs, newtons, joules). When I say "measure power output," I'm discussing it from the standpoint that he discusses on Page 4:

Quote:
Fortunately, there is a very easy and effective way of maximizing the practical application of power and intensity for fitness: time your workouts, count your reps and know the weight of your barbells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
Measuring your workouts=useful
Trying to plot power along a curve=not useful

Is this not what the article says?
No. Where does it say that?

Lastly, Russell's article is about maximizing results, not about recording/documenting fitness. This can be found on Page 5:

Quote:
The overwhelming conclusion of these analyses is that tracking times and loads is as much data as we need to develop elite levels of fitness. Secondly, these investigations concluded that calculating actual foot-pounds per minute didn't contribute any additional benefit toward that fitness. (Emphasis mine).
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