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Old 01-20-2010, 02:30 AM   #41
Chris Hill
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by John Welbourn View Post
Not to burst your bubble but the Wendler 5-3-1 is a program for an advanced lifter trying to peak for a meet.
John, this is totally incorrect. The whole point of 531 is to hit PRs across rep ranges and not always working for a 1RM as you would in a meet. Over many cycles of 531 the weight will increase and reps will eventually drop until you can not do more than the minimum. When you eventually hit a true 5 or 3RM the slow steady progression will often mean this is greater than the 1Rm you started with.

This long term view of strength gain is something that is sadly missing in most quarters these days. 3-2-1 go.... should sometimes just be saved for shots of gin.
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:14 AM   #42
Matt Corley
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Can CFFB be used as is for less days a week? It seems like if any lifting days were left out the linear progressions would be shot. I'm not sure the best way to handle it.
If you really wanted to see if this was viable why don't you go to the website and catalog the workouts. Go from one CFFT to the next. I haven't been on the site in a while but I think that the direct strength work is 3 or 4 days a week. Then see what metcons correlate with the strength work.

Or you could do the CFWF programming.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:44 AM   #43
Kelly Moore
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

I've been using 531 as prep for the raw powerlifting meet at the Arnold Classic this March. I like being able to walk into a competition and know what my three attempts will be - this program takes the guess work out as my first attempt is what I can do for five reps, the second is what I can do for three and knowing the single makes it easy.

My raw lifts are skyrocketing across the board in terms of both my 85-95% for reps and single rep maxes. I lift three times a week: squat, bench + full ROM HSPUs (in place of shoulder presses) and deadlift along with three 10 minute metcons a week. I have many years of lifting experience and I was an International Elite ranked Powerlifter in the early 90s (wearing every bit of allowable gear). This program is more productive than any other I have tried for strength gains in these lifts. Metcons are showing only a small increase in time and in some cases showing improvement.

I am also training a novice strength athlete using this program. Her results are nothing short of spectacular following the same general programming.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:00 AM   #44
Jay Ashman
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by Kelly Moore View Post
I've been using 531 as prep for the raw powerlifting meet at the Arnold Classic this March. I like being able to walk into a competition and know what my three attempts will be - this program takes the guess work out as I my first attempt is what I can do for five reps, the second is what I can do for three and knowing the single makes it easy.

My raw lifts are skyrocketing across the board in terms of both my 85-95% for reps and single rep maxes. I lift three times a week: squat, bench + full ROM HSPUs (in place of shoulder presses) and deadlift along with three 10 minute metcons a week. I have many years of lifting experience and I was an International Elite ranked Powerlifter in the early 90s (wearing every bit of allowable gear). Metcons are showing only a small increase in time and in some cases showing improvement.

I am also training a novice strength athlete using this program. Her results are nothing short of spectacular following the same general programming.
I've seen stories about 5-3-1 that parallel that from all over the place. Good work.

Its an incredibly well-designed program and the fact that you are having strength gains while maintaining conditioning says a lot...
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:51 AM   #45
Leslie Powell
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

Kelly, I was hoping you would post as one thing I've wondered about is how 5/3/1 meshes with girevoy training? Have you tried that at all? Worked out a programming system to put them together?
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:54 AM   #46
David Stout
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by Kelly Moore View Post
I've been using 531 as prep for the raw powerlifting meet at the Arnold Classic this March. I like being able to walk into a competition and know what my three attempts will be - this program takes the guess work out as my first attempt is what I can do for five reps, the second is what I can do for three and knowing the single makes it easy.

My raw lifts are skyrocketing across the board in terms of both my 85-95% for reps and single rep maxes. I lift three times a week: squat, bench + full ROM HSPUs (in place of shoulder presses) and deadlift along with three 10 minute metcons a week. I have many years of lifting experience and I was an International Elite ranked Powerlifter in the early 90s (wearing every bit of allowable gear). This program is more productive than any other I have tried for strength gains in these lifts. Metcons are showing only a small increase in time and in some cases showing improvement.

I am also training a novice strength athlete using this program. Her results are nothing short of spectacular following the same general programming.
Kelly -

1. How many days a week are you running the 5/3/1?
2. Are you doing any assistance work in addition to the 5/3/1 lifts and three metcons per week?

Thanks for any replies.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:57 AM   #47
Jonathan Yoon
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by Leslie Powell View Post
Kelly, I was hoping you would post as one thing I've wondered about is how 5/3/1 meshes with girevoy training? Have you tried that at all? Worked out a programming system to put them together?
There's a blog post from an RKC instructor here about it (WFS): http://jason-lonestarkettlebell.blog...31-update.html

His comments at the bottom talk about how he used KB's with the 5/3/1 program.

Quote:
I used a double KB clean and press in place of the barbell clean and press. I tested my barbell max before I started 5/3/1 and I used a pair of bells closest to the prescribed weight.

I used barbell lifts on the other 3.

I primarily used KB drills for my accessories, warmups and conditioning work. They include heavy double KB front squats, swings, bottoms up press, Suitcase rows and floor press. Many days I don't get to accessories, but if I do, it's one or two moves. I try to get the most bang for my buck, so I go heavy and hard with whatever I choose.

The entire program and how I've adjusted for me and my goals has worked really well. The current cycle I'm on has seen crazy improvement on all 4 lifts.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:18 PM   #48
George Noble
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by Kelly Moore View Post
I've been using 531 as prep for the raw powerlifting meet at the Arnold Classic this March. I like being able to walk into a competition and know what my three attempts will be - this program takes the guess work out as my first attempt is what I can do for five reps, the second is what I can do for three and knowing the single makes it easy.

My raw lifts are skyrocketing across the board in terms of both my 85-95% for reps and single rep maxes. I lift three times a week: squat, bench + full ROM HSPUs (in place of shoulder presses) and deadlift along with three 10 minute metcons a week. I have many years of lifting experience and I was an International Elite ranked Powerlifter in the early 90s (wearing every bit of allowable gear). This program is more productive than any other I have tried for strength gains in these lifts. Metcons are showing only a small increase in time and in some cases showing improvement.

I am also training a novice strength athlete using this program. Her results are nothing short of spectacular following the same general programming.
How many waves of 5/3/1 have you done in this training cycle? The way I see it, if you implemented it like Jim says by starting light and doing high reps on the last lift of the day, you would need to have run it for quite a long time before you got to a point where you were actually doing 5 reps on the 5 day, 3 on the 3 day and 1 on the 1 day. That is what makes it not a peaking program.

And like Jay said, this is what everyone else is saying about 5/3/1. It seems as though John is about the only person not to get it to work.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:30 PM   #49
Jay Ashman
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
And like Jay said, this is what everyone else is saying about 5/3/1. It seems as though John is about the only person not to get it to work.
If John was comparing a couple month block of CFFB strength training to 5/3/1 then maybe he had better results with CFFB. But... 5/3/1 isn't designed to be a 2 month training program, it is designed for the long haul, and with the way it is set up (for steady gains and not for huge, fast gains) you can achieve long term gains without stalling out.

I plan on using it for about 8-10 months to see where I end up and a lot of people I know who use this program do it for that length of time.

With linear progression there will be a point in time where you will stall out progress, especially if you are doing conditioning with it, and what do you do after that? You have to back off weights or have lifting days with DE lifting (speed days), deload days, etc.. Its the only way to ensure long-term gains and to avoid overtraining. I fell into that trap several years ago, doing linear progression and stalling out and thinking that if I still went heavy I would have progress, well I didn't....

To be honest, I feel that 5/3/1 is a better lifting program judging by the overwhelming response I have heard about it, and I am curious to see how it will work for me using conditioning with it.

I think I will have great results with it, and I bet anyone else would as well.

Having said that, I am not saying CFFB doesn't work, it is clear it does; I just think 5/3/1 is a more solid strength program and with the right programming for conditioning it can be an excellent program for total sports conditioning.

Nothing wrong with options for people, choose the best one for you.

Last edited by Jay Ashman : 01-20-2010 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:49 PM   #50
Kelly Moore
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Re: 5/3/1 and Crossfit questions from Wendler

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Originally Posted by Leslie Powell View Post
Kelly, I was hoping you would post as one thing I've wondered about is how 5/3/1 meshes with girevoy training? Have you tried that at all? Worked out a programming system to put them together?
Hi Leslie,

I found that timed sets worked for the biathon training I did when competing in Kettlebell Sport. I tried other methods but none of them worked like timed sets. I would not try to adopt a 531 type program for Kettlebell Sport training.

If your question is how to mix the two, I don't think I would attempt it. I suppose one could replace the 10 minute metcons with the timed kb sets, but heavy deadlifts mixed with timed 20k kettlebell sets would fry my lower back and set me up for no progress in either sport or injury.
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