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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-09-2009, 08:45 AM   #31
Peter Terry Haas
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

First, I'd like to thank Jeff for the fantastic write-up. I think I'm one of the people that argued for SS only, and it was really good to see his full methodology and explanation. Now i more fully understand his arguments. Again, great article.

I was a little biased in my previous arguments b/c I did SS for 3 months, made tremendous gains, then jumped into PMenu WODs, not mainpage. Jumping into an O-lift centric program w/ short heavy metcons after having built a good strength base allowed me to make tremendous progress, both in the lifts and metabolically. I didn't notice a metabolic dropoff since most of the metcons were so short. That and I am of the opinion that building top-end explosive power has more positive trickle-down metabolic effects than just pure strength gains.

The same thing did not happen recently when I attempted to jump back in to CF mainpage WODs after doing a linear strength cycle for 4 weeks. My metcons sucked. Terribly. Because of that I can understand Jeff's arguments a little better now.

Again, I'm really happy to see this article out. Jeff, I hope that because of the positive response that you've received from this that you'll put out more material on this subject in the future. Thanks.

I'll jump back into this thread later. Gotta teach.
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:09 AM   #32
Ed Haywood
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Subscribed to CFJ and read the CFSB article. Great stuff. This is just what I have been looking for. A few questions and comments:

1. Are the authors planning a black box version of the CFSB programming? The matrix at the end of the article leaves metcon selection and skill work up to the choice of the athlete or coach. That's great for some, but many of us would just like to go to www.cfsb.com and do what the magic 8-ball says, verbatim.

2. Similarly, a bolt-on module for those who want to continue doing the main site WOD would be helpful. Something along the lines of CFE, "do x sets of y at z% of 3RM before the WOD", would be great for those who follow the main site WOD as a matter of religious conviction.

3. Where does Oly lifting fit into this? Is it part of the skill work, or the heavy metcons? If skill work, what about Oly max effort days? How do we integrate those into the programming without overtraining? Could you sub heavy oly training for the Front Squat day, since FS are inherent in oly lifts?

4. Some objective standards to differentiate intermediate and advanced crossfitters would be useful. "If you can't do xx at yy% of BW yet, then you are not ready for CFSB."

5. What is the rationale for putting the squat and DL days adjacent to each other? Did the trials also test putting them in opposite halves of the cycle?

6. If the programming never includes metcons above 20 min, are we not over-specializing and missing a performance domain? Shouldn't GPP include the ability to keep on truckin' for 45 minutes or an hour?

I tried something like CFSB with squats, but after reading the article I realize that I over-did it. I attempted to graft the SS approach of 3x5 flat sets, 3 days a week with linear progression, onto the mainsite WOD. I rapidly got stuck. Obviously the flat sets were too much, as the CFSB trials confirm. I'll retry it with squats once per WOD cycle, ascending sets, alternating between 3x5 and 3x3 to ratchet my weight up.

Last edited by Ed Haywood : 02-09-2009 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:34 AM   #33
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

I think this is as good a place as any other for this

http://www.explosm.net/comics/1554/

(borderline WFS, odd humor, stick figures)
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:35 AM   #34
Darrell E. White
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Bryan:

The article is designed to present the program CFSB which is, by its nature, geared toward experienced CrossFitters. The rationale behind that bias is that it is important to be competent in the lifts, experienced enough to be aware of form breakdowns, and consistent in the very particular type of intensity that is present in CF met-cons. Nowhere did it say or imply that the program was for Cf'ers who were able to do WOD's as Rx'd and were interested in scaling up.

The article did clearly state our contention that athletes who are beginners and wish to achieve true General Physical Preparedness can do so by doing scaled .com WOD's; they can also get strong(er) doing just .com WOD's. One example given was "bingo", me, and my increase in DL from 175 to 305 at BW 150 doing only .com WOD's. Massive strength? Nah, especially from a powerlifting perspective, but certainly enough to do lots of the .com WOD's "as Rx'd" for sure. By the way, I am a solo CrossFitter who did CF without coaching without a level 1 cert off the Main Page for almost 3 years before going to a cert and before doing CFSB (which I am also doing solo, in a Globo, without a coach).

Please re-read the article with the above in mind, remembering who is being targeted and why, and then feel free to rant if it still applies.

--bingo
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:15 AM   #35
Ian Haya
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

I just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that I was really looking forward to this article ever since I heard bingo and Jeff were going to be publishing their results from the CrossFit Strength experiment.

I had the benefit of Anthony and Jodi's programming and coaching at CrossFit Fredericton for 6-7 months last year doing what could be considered a strength bias. I have since moved to Ottawa, joined the barbell club at CrossFit Ottawa doing what could be considered an Olympic Weightlifting bias. Being a smaller guy (5'4", 140-143 when I started CrossFit, now 151-154), starting out, Rx'd weights were pretty darn heavy. I'm an "as Rx" person now though, having almost reached the "Advanced" strength/power benchmarks in most of the lifts (~BW press, ~2xBW squat, 2.5xBW DL, ~1.25xBW Snatch, 1.5xBW C&J).

The results of the article certainly mirror what I've been experiencing. Steady gains in strength/power, as well as metcon performance. The programming, for the most part, was very similar to what I had been doing as well.

The once exception would be the 15-20RM work, but I can certainly understand it's inclusion. Thanks Jeff and bingo for getting this out there, and hopefully the knee-jerk reaction of SS+GOMAD won't be the recommendation for someone who wants to achieve GPP, i.e. get good at CrossFit.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:19 AM   #36
Jeff Martin
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Gotta go teach as well, but need to add to Darrell's response Bryan. Both Darrell and I want to be very clear about this, we are not knocking Rip or Starting Strength.
Two points I would like to make before I split, the first regarding Starting Strength. I run Brand X. People come to our site for scaling and advice on the mainpage WOD. When the CF Total comes up part of my description states the following:
If you are unfamiliar with these lifts buy Starting Strength. ( http://www.****************.com )

If you are familiar with these lifts and do them all the time buy Starting Strength. (http://www.****************.com )

I think anyone interested in learning to lift correctly should by Starting Strength read it and then go to a Bar Bell cert.

The second point I would like to make starts again with 'I run Brand X'. For three years my wife and i have scaled the mainpage WOD. We do it when we are on vacation, sick...etc. We answer questions on our site everyday from newbies. I'm pretty sure you can't comprehend the amount of emails and questions we answer from newbies. We have run an affiliate for 5 years, and taken people who never competed in any sport to being competitors at the games. Please don't tell me that I do not understand the new persons dilemma or how to take them from a beginner to a firebreather. I think that discussion should just stop.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:56 AM   #37
Adolfo Riveron
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
Subscribed to CFJ and read the CFSB article. Great stuff. This is just what I have been looking for. A few questions and comments:

1. Are the authors planning a black box version of the CFSB programming? The matrix at the end of the article leaves metcon selection and skill work up to the choice of the athlete or coach. That's great for some, but many of us would just like to go to www.cfsb.com and do what the magic 8-ball says, verbatim.

2. Similarly, a bolt-on module for those who want to continue doing the main site WOD would be helpful. Something along the lines of CFE, "do x sets of y at z% of 3RM before the WOD", would be great for those who follow the main site WOD as a matter of religious conviction.

3. Where does Oly lifting fit into this? Is it part of the skill work, or the heavy metcons? If skill work, what about Oly max effort days? How do we integrate those into the programming without overtraining? Could you sub heavy oly training for the Front Squat day, since FS are inherent in oly lifts?

4. Some objective standards to differentiate intermediate and advanced CrossFitters would be useful. "If you can't do xx at yy% of BW yet, then you are not ready for CFSB."

5. What is the rationale for putting the squat and DL days adjacent to each other? Did the trials also test putting them in opposite halves of the cycle?

6. If the programming never includes metcons above 20 min, are we not over-specializing and missing a performance domain? Shouldn't GPP include the ability to keep on truckin' for 45 minutes or an hour?

I tried something like CFSB with squats, but after reading the article I realize that I over-did it. I attempted to graft the SS approach of 3x5 flat sets, 3 days a week with linear progression, onto the mainsite WOD. I rapidly got stuck. Obviously the flat sets were too much, as the CFSB trials confirm. I'll retry it with squats once per WOD cycle, ascending sets, alternating between 3x5 and 3x3 to ratchet my weight up.

Im also interested in how to fit oly in there...Im debating whether to do the pmenu wods for a while or to try this out. Maybe 4 a four week cyle of this and then a four week bulgarian cycle at pmenu? Or as Ed said sub oly work for front squats?

Thank you to Jeff and Bingo for this article. A lot of people were really interested in this.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:08 AM   #38
Mark Knisely
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Do I have to purchase the Journal in order to get the full article and the CFSB program?
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:13 AM   #39
David Stout
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Knisely View Post
Do I have to purchase the Journal in order to get the full article and the CFSB program?
Yes, the article requires a CFJ Subscription.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:21 AM   #40
Mark Knisely
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Well I don't got a credit card, is there any way I can get a hold of this CFSB thing, the Journal is only 25 bucks I know but unfortunately I am credit-card-less.
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