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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-11-2008, 06:50 PM   #21
Robert Callahan
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Robert,
There is no question that strength helps in strength based WOD's. Where in heavens name does it appear that that is being argued. The goal was to see if with in the context of CrossFit we could get similar strength gains to someone doing a beginner powerlifting course.
Sorry, I do not know anything about the study or experiment that you guys ran or the results. I was simply responding to the claim that doing a SS style program will cause a person to lose "a ton of metcon" and the line
Quote:
The experience at BrandX is that a departure from met-con work results in a dramatic reduction in met-con results, regardless of strength acquired.
sounds like a claim that strength training will lead to a digression in preformance at metcons no matter the strength gained. I did not think that was entirely accurate sounding which is why I commented.

Didn't mean to bring you into the middle of the discussion though.. sorry about that
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:08 PM   #22
David Stout
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

Interesting thread from 08/2006 that has Rippetoe and Coach Rut weigh in on a similar topic (WFS obviously):

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=1503

PS - Coach Rut is posting his seasonal MEBB WODs at his blog which you may be interested in. (WFS): http://coachrut.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:58 PM   #23
Donald Lee
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

With WS4SB, you could probably do a conditioning workout on Saturdays. I believe a lot of Joe Defranco's athletes do Strongman training on Saturdays. You could also conceivably do short conditioning workouts (5-10 min) after your workouts on two of the days. Ross Enamait uses that a lot and calls them finishers.

Regarding the bicep curls, Joe D has said he only has them because people will do them anyways.

There are many ways to gain strength and maintain conditioning. Personally, I wouldn't do most of the CrossFit WOD's if I were just trying to maintain my conditioning. The CrossFit WOD's require use a lot of strength and are hard to recover from when strength training. I'd much rather do conditioning workouts with less resistance to maintain or increase work capacity. If you're on a strength training regimen, there's no need to use a lot of weight for your conditioning workouts to the detriment of your strength training.

With that said, you can do Coach Rut's MEBB or something similar if you feel that would fit your goals.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:46 PM   #24
Aushion Chatman
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
hmm, I find that interesting since Jeff Martin was one of the asst coaches at the Barbell Cert I recently attended and he never mentioned that when Rip was discussing how much improved strength can effect metcon efforts.

Regardless it all depends on the individual. If you have someone coming into the gym who has never really weight trained before and can only squat 135, DL 185, and press 85 no matter how good their metcon training is they will not have a fast Diane, Fran, or any other WOD that includes weight. You spend 4-6 weeks doing a SS style program and improve all those lifts by 50% or more and then bring them back and do a Fran or Diane with no metcon work and I guarantee you it will be significantly faster than before.

Does this mean all people should do SS? No. Someone with good genetics and some past experience with serious weight training will probably already have decent lifts and not need the exclusivity that SS provides. They could do the main page WODs, or if they wanted a hybrid program. In this case the strength gained in a SS program would not offset the layoff in metcon.

Oh and if you want you can do SS with a short metcon on sat. and maintain metcon preformance pretty well that way.

It all depends on the individual at hand.
Robert I do not believe there is some magic strength benchmark that someone needs to reach before beginning CF. I think we've lost the gospel in favor of religious rights here. The formula wasn't ever to do SS, then CF, then some hybrid program. That has become the message board generic answer for everyone though. But I'm not entirely sure why.

When you're self-programming the hardest thing to do is stick with something through it's useful duration. Too many people are jumping from philosophy to philosophy to try to get the next best thing. Someone said the guys from strength backgrounds do better at CF...well fine, but I believe their strength background was built over a few years, not 20 weeks of linear progressions.

Trying to catch up to someone like that in a few months probably won't work the way we think it will...maybe it does, but generally life doesn't work that way.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:12 AM   #25
Robert Callahan
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
Robert I do not believe there is some magic strength benchmark that someone needs to reach before beginning CF. I think we've lost the gospel in favor of religious rights here. The formula wasn't ever to do SS, then CF, then some hybrid program. That has become the message board generic answer for everyone though. But I'm not entirely sure why.

When you're self-programming the hardest thing to do is stick with something through it's useful duration. Too many people are jumping from philosophy to philosophy to try to get the next best thing. Someone said the guys from strength backgrounds do better at CF...well fine, but I believe their strength background was built over a few years, not 20 weeks of linear progressions.

Trying to catch up to someone like that in a few months probably won't work the way we think it will...maybe it does, but generally life doesn't work that way.
I agree there is no strength benchmark required for starting CF at all. The only reason I commented is because the OP mentioned wanting more strength, and a good solid way to do that would be a SS style linear progression.

And 20 weeks of linear progression will not get you to the same place as someone who has been lifting heavy for 10 years, or even 5 years. But it can take a 135 squat and turn it into a 210 squat. And that can make a huge difference on WODs like Fran, Diane and a whole host of others. That has been my experience at least.

-Robert
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:17 AM   #26
Aushion Chatman
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

Ok we're on the same page then...cool....yeah totally depends on goals, unfortunately I've seen SS prescribed as the starting point without ever asking the "new" athlete what their actual goals are. If the goals are overall fitness I'd start with CF and work on my weaknesses supplementally, if it happens to be strength than an SS style mix would work great. If it's running, then you supplement with some extra mileage, alot of people need to be supplementing with gymnastics work but that doesn't happen very often.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:54 AM   #27
Adam Scheiner
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
alot of people need to be supplementing with gymnastics work but that doesn't happen very often.
Everybody's worried about there strength and their metcon, but who gives a **** if you can do Diane in under 5 minutes when you can't even hold a free standing handstand. It's more useful to be good at parkour than be able to deadlift 700 lbs (ofcourse we would all like to be able to do both)
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:36 AM   #28
Darrell E. White
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

That's been my whole point all along, Aush. Do SS or the equivalent if strength gains are your primary concern. But Crossfitters don't need to leave Crossfit to get stronger. They may need to do something a little different than Main Page Crossfit to be sure, but it's counterproductive to leave CF if you like CF and like CF benefits to get stronger in order to do CF.

Or something like that...

-bingo
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:42 AM   #29
Dave Campbell
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
That's been my whole point all along, Aush. Do SS or the equivalent if strength gains are your primary concern. But Crossfitters don't need to leave Crossfit to get stronger. They may need to do something a little different than Main Page Crossfit to be sure, but it's counterproductive to leave CF if you like CF and like CF benefits to get stronger in order to do CF.

Or something like that...

-bingo
Well put, Darrell
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:00 AM   #30
David Stout
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Re: CF, SS, or WS4SB?

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Originally Posted by Adam Scheiner View Post
Everybody's worried about there strength and their metcon, but who gives a **** if you can do Diane in under 5 minutes when you can't even hold a free standing handstand. It's more useful to be good at parkour than be able to deadlift 700 lbs (ofcourse we would all like to be able to do both)
Say's who? What if handstands don't fit into the trainees goals? It all depends in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
That's been my whole point all along, Aush. Do SS or the equivalent if strength gains are your primary concern. But Crossfitters don't need to leave Crossfit to get stronger. They may need to do something a little different than Main Page Crossfit to be sure, but it's counterproductive to leave CF if you like CF and like CF benefits to get stronger in order to do CF.

Or something like that...

-bingo
That is a super post Darrell. Again, it all boils down to priorities in your goals as well as your likes and dislikes in programming and results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
When you're self-programming the hardest thing to do is stick with something through it's useful duration. Too many people are jumping from philosophy to philosophy to try to get the next best thing. Someone said the guys from strength backgrounds do better at CF...well fine, but I believe their strength background was built over a few years, not 20 weeks of linear progressions.

Trying to catch up to someone like that in a few months probably won't work the way we think it will...maybe it does, but generally life doesn't work that way.
That is a heck of a post! Alot of people DO NOT understand what they are getting into when they go pure SS. It is a hard a$$ program to stick with, and to see it all the way through you need to give it more than 4 weeks.

Good quote on how hard it is to stick with it:

Quote:
The novice program gets [censored] hard.

Really hard.

There's really nothing like finishing a back-breaking, record-setting squat session knowing that in two days time you're going to be doing the EXACT SAME THING only with more weight.
I don't know if its the cyclical nature of message board posting but is seems like this topic really seems to get re-hashed over and over again. Maybe we need a sticky for a long uber post to tackle this topic once and for all.

Last edited by David Stout : 12-12-2008 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Added final thoughts.
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