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Old 04-06-2011, 11:32 PM   #11
Jared Ashley
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

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Originally Posted by Nicholas Borek View Post
You're 70 lbs underweight, you're doing too much extra work thats draining your ability to recover and you're not eating enough to recover let alone gain weight. Yea, I've never heard of people stalling hard in those circumstances, either.

And the universe doesn't care about relative weight. Being smaller doesn't make the objects around you smaller.
If pure strength was my only goal, you'd be right. Other goals exist.

Instead, I want to be able to run, hike, and backpack over rugged terrain at altitude, activities where knees and lungs reward those who are small, strong for their size, and have above-average endurance, and punish those who are lugging around 50 lbs of surplus muscle and fat and are unaccustomed to prolonged activity.

Also, I want a body suited to skydiving, a sport where my small size is actually a huge advantage (less mass is easier to maneuver, takes up less space in the door, and I can add weight in a belt to fall faster but a big guy can't take weight off to fall slower).

Thus, I am not asking advice on how to get crazy strong. That's easy... eat a ton, cut the metcons, don't run, lift heavy. I am instead looking to optimize my strength at roughly my current size. the record raw squat in the 132 lb weight class is 551 lbs, so I hardly think my PR of approximately half that is the limit of what I can achieve without adding a bunch of muscle.

Back to the original post, I'd like accounts of how others lifts looked when they stalled, and how much further were they able to go after a reset. The posts thusfar answer a different question and thus are not useful.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:37 PM   #12
Jared Ashley
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

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Originally Posted by Jason Halm View Post
Everytime I've stalled, I've been able to sleep more and better and eat more and better and it takes care of itself.
sleep is good... 7-8 hours most nights, sometimes 9 or 10. I eat more than is evident from my size (I tracked for a week once and averaged 2700+ cals/day. That's a LOT for a 135 lb guy). I admit I could eat cleaner, perhaps it is time to buckle down on that front.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:09 AM   #13
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

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Originally Posted by Jared Ashley View Post
If pure strength was my only goal, you'd be right. Other goals exist.

Instead, I want to be able to run, hike, and backpack over rugged terrain at altitude, activities where knees and lungs reward those who are small, strong for their size, and have above-average endurance, and punish those who are lugging around 50 lbs of surplus muscle and fat and are unaccustomed to prolonged activity.

Also, I want a body suited to skydiving, a sport where my small size is actually a huge advantage (less mass is easier to maneuver, takes up less space in the door, and I can add weight in a belt to fall faster but a big guy can't take weight off to fall slower).

Thus, I am not asking advice on how to get crazy strong. That's easy... eat a ton, cut the metcons, don't run, lift heavy. I am instead looking to optimize my strength at roughly my current size. the record raw squat in the 132 lb weight class is 551 lbs, so I hardly think my PR of approximately half that is the limit of what I can achieve without adding a bunch of muscle.

Back to the original post, I'd like accounts of how others lifts looked when they stalled, and how much further were they able to go after a reset. The posts thusfar answer a different question and thus are not useful.
And the record raw squat in my weight class is 300kg--I never squatted >50% of that amount until I started doing a regular strength program, quit caring about my weight, and cut out all my distance work.

I'm fairly sure the world record holder in your weight class isn't sabotaging his strength progress with distance running. Plus he's probably about 5'3" and in the 6-8% bodyfat range. And he's been doing nothing but lifting heavy for a majority of his life. And he's pretty genetically gifted, or he wouldn't be a world record holder.

You've had a handful of people tell you that you're stalling because of your low bodyweight and high volume of endurance working--you can choose to ignore those facts, but there's no way around them. Your other goals are incompatible with getting significantly stronger.

When I insisted on staying at a stupid weight of about 175lbs at 6' tall I couldn't understand why my squat was stuck at about 270lbs and my deadlift couldn't break 400lbs. But wouldn't you know it, once I put on about 25lbs and quit running so much I managed to add about 100lbs to both lifts in pretty short order.

You could check out something like the Greyskull linear progression if you want another way to address resets, but I don't know how much good it'll do given your other circumstances.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:56 AM   #14
Benjamin Nichols
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

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Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
And the record raw squat in my weight class is 300kg--I never squatted >50% of that amount until I started doing a regular strength program, quit caring about my weight, and cut out all my distance work.

I'm fairly sure the world record holder in your weight class isn't sabotaging his strength progress with distance running. Plus he's probably about 5'3" and in the 6-8% bodyfat range. And he's been doing nothing but lifting heavy for a majority of his life. And he's pretty genetically gifted, or he wouldn't be a world record holder.

You've had a handful of people tell you that you're stalling because of your low bodyweight and high volume of endurance working--you can choose to ignore those facts, but there's no way around them. Your other goals are incompatible with getting significantly stronger.

When I insisted on staying at a stupid weight of about 175lbs at 6' tall I couldn't understand why my squat was stuck at about 270lbs and my deadlift couldn't break 400lbs. But wouldn't you know it, once I put on about 25lbs and quit running so much I managed to add about 100lbs to both lifts in pretty short order.

You could check out something like the Greyskull linear progression if you want another way to address resets, but I don't know how much good it'll do given your other circumstances.

Honestly, this guy's numbers are better than, if not equal with most of ya'lls--in terms of relative strength. He's got a 2x BW squat, a 2.5x DL, and at least a bodyweight press. That's pretty damn good for someone who puts more of a focus on GPP and endurance. Sure - you can attribute world record holders numbers to genetics--and a lifetime of training--but I think this guy can still progress at his current height and weight. Though, he could stand to gain maybe 5-10 lbs.; that wouldn't affect his running too much. Heck, I'm 6'.05, 175-180 lbs. and just found a true 1rm on my squat at 265 (this is the first time I've ever really went for one.) I never squat. Ever. I'm consistently hitting around the 18 min. mark on my 5ks--which I don't even regularly run.
I've got a huge disadvantage in leverage compared to a lot of people (I'm like the perpetuation of an ectomorph.) This guy can definitely keep progressing if he just resets and ramps his food intake a more.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:03 AM   #15
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

Yeah, that's all true, and to be clear I'm not knocking his goals--I'm just saying that they're not compatible with getting much stronger than he currently is without adding some bodyweight or changing his overall training program.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:25 AM   #16
Jason Halm
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

You don't even have to gain 50 pounds, either. Just eat enough to move the scale up a little. A pound a week, even.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:28 AM   #17
Nicholas Borek
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

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If pure strength was my only goal, you'd be right. Other goals exist.

Instead, I want to be able to run, hike, and backpack over rugged terrain at altitude, activities where knees and lungs reward those who are small, strong for their size, and have above-average endurance, and punish those who are lugging around 50 lbs of surplus muscle and fat and are unaccustomed to prolonged activity.

Also, I want a body suited to skydiving, a sport where my small size is actually a huge advantage (less mass is easier to maneuver, takes up less space in the door, and I can add weight in a belt to fall faster but a big guy can't take weight off to fall slower).

Thus, I am not asking advice on how to get crazy strong. That's easy... eat a ton, cut the metcons, don't run, lift heavy. I am instead looking to optimize my strength at roughly my current size. the record raw squat in the 132 lb weight class is 551 lbs, so I hardly think my PR of approximately half that is the limit of what I can achieve without adding a bunch of muscle.

Back to the original post, I'd like accounts of how others lifts looked when they stalled, and how much further were they able to go after a reset. The posts thusfar answer a different question and thus are not useful.
You're about as strong as you're going to get any time soon doing a LINEAR PROGRESSION. A linear progression will not work in your circumstances for all the aforementioned reasons that you've already told us you're going to ignore.

Did you really come onto the forum to say "I'm doing all of these things that I know are causing my problems, now how do I fix with them out changing any of it?" Honestly? Do you really not see how insanely frustrating that is?

Quote:
Honestly, this guy's numbers are better than, if not equal with most of ya'lls--in terms of relative strength. He's got a 2x BW squat, a 2.5x DL, and at least a bodyweight press. That's pretty damn good for someone who puts more of a focus on GPP and endurance.
He's not even pulling 300 lbs and he's 5'7. Thats weak, homes, regardless of his bodyweight. Guys who are smaller and really strong have crazy genetics, crazy good drugs, or are satisfied with stalling all the time and making really small jumps. 135 at 5'7 is anorexic teenager small. I think 165 at 5'7 is small.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:41 AM   #18
Emily Mattes
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

Smaller men always have better strength-to-bodyweight ratios. A 2.5xBW DL at 135# is NOT the same caliber of achievement as a 2.5xBW DL at 180# or 220# (and honestly, a 2.5xBW DL for a man isn't that crazy anyway).

Jared, if you want to get past the stall using a linear progression method you'll need to eat more. It's also arguable given your training age (4 years) that linear progression will not work for you anymore, though that does depend on how long you've been doing focused strength training during that time period (metcons don't count).

If you insist on not gaining weight, maybe something more gradual like 5/3/1 would be a more appropriate choice. I would not expect large gains with that either.

People like Chris Speal have a long athletic history at their weight and size, allowing them to build up to the strength they have today. You can't expect to achieve the same numbers at your bodyweight as a former D1 wrestler.

As for Shane, 35lbs is not a small amount of weight, especially if even a small percentage of that is muscle. You can't dismiss it so easily as inconsequential to his strength over you.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:49 AM   #19
Bret Goldstein
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

While I understand the commentary about having conflicting goals and training methods - simply criticizing his choices may not necessarily be the best way of responding to his request. Strangely, I may have similar goals if I understand him correctly. In essence, he wants to increase his muscular strength as much as he can without significant weight gain. Basically, the way I read it is that he wants to get as strong for his size (weight and build) as he possibly can.

While I am not quite so focused on my weight or my look, at 43 I have found that I simply feel better and am more physically / athletically capable when I am leaner. Nevertheless, I do want to make strength gains. Is there any way around the training obstacle? I try to do it by varying diet to gain and lose weight in a cycle. I gain strength when I gain weight and a lose a little when I change diet - but I don't lose all of the strength that I have gained, only variable amounts of it.

Also, I am not a big fan of one rep maximums. I prefer two or three - especially with squatting and deadlifting. Admittedly, my numbers on these lifts are poor - but I am 6'.5" and weigh around 165.

Any suggestions other than - hey bud, it just won't work?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:01 AM   #20
Nicholas Borek
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Re: Linear progression, stalling, and resetting

It just won't work, at least not in a reasonable amount of time. I don't understand why everyone thinks that gaining weight means you'll get fat and slow. Your bodyfat % WILL NOT GO UP VERY MUCH and you'll be stronger. Way stronger. And muscular. Not fat. End of story.
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