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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 07-09-2010, 11:03 AM   #31
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
"the only way to win is to do more work faster."
There it is. I think that is the problem in a nutshell. Kipping is not doing more work faster, it is doing less work faster.

Kipping temporarily reduces the weight lifted by manipulating body momentum. This is a flat out refutal of your statement.

If I understand some of you; the theory is "I lifted my same body-weight in a faster time, hence I generated more power."

The reality is, you are lifting less weight up, in a (hopefully) faster time.

As I said, the "power" thing was debunked. It does not take more power to move less weight, unless you know the exact weights, forces, and speeds involved (and my CF is done in a garage, not a lab with high-speed sensors and cameras, so I certainly don't).
 
Old 07-09-2010, 11:06 AM   #32
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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There it is. I think that is the problem in a nutshell. Kipping is not doing more work faster, it is doing less work faster.

Kipping temporarily reduces the weight lifted by manipulating body momentum. This is a flat out refutal of your statement.

If I understand some of you; the theory is "I lifted my same body-weight in a faster time, hence I generated more power."

The reality is, you are lifting less weight up, in a (hopefully) faster time.

As I said, the "power" thing was debunked. It does not take more power to move less weight, unless you know the exact weights, forces, and speeds involved (and my CF is done in a garage, not a lab with high-speed sensors and cameras, so I certainly don't).
Again, no. You are lifting up the same amount of weight, but using different muscle groups, in less time. The same object traveling the same vertical distance in less time is producing more power. You could even argue the kip requires even more energy because the path is an arc rather than a straight line.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:17 AM   #33
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Again, no. You are lifting up the same amount of weight
Again, no. You are conflating mass with weight.

On top of that, you are changing the inertia part of the equation (which works against you in a pullup) and replacing it with momentum (which works for you).

Again, it is less work, done faster.

Back to you.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 11:19 AM   #34
Brock Wilson
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

One aspect of this argument that I've yet to see addressed is, for lack of a better phrase, the ability to quantify the motion precisely.

I would guess that Mainsite/HQ programs "pullups" without specifying strict/kipping/butterfly/knee ups etc. for exactly this reason. As far as judging a ROM goes "full extension to chin above the bar" is relatively unambiguous. If you ask for strict pullups, you introduce a whole range of quantifiable questionmarks: Did he pick his knees up a tiny bit? Did she come to a complete dead hang or did she rebound out of the bottom? Did he push his head through the window and create a little momentum? Etc etc.

You dont see a lot of (any?) dead hang pullups in any of the judged environments like sectionals/regionals etc. Your small kip may be my strict pullup.

Conversely, if the task is "get from point A to point b" and the path, the -HOW- is up to the athletes, each allowed to chose their best advantage, that results in a truer contest, in the sense that the judhes/referees what have you, have less impact on the outcome.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 11:20 AM   #35
Aushion Chatman
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

In fact maybe a strict pull-up is a baseline kind of strength movement...but...to call a pull-up a strength movement is stretching the term a bit. I guess it's a strength movement at a fundamental level. But the strict pull-up as a strength tool is probably an exercise that can be discarded once other bodyweight exercises have been developed. IMO.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:21 AM   #36
Mark Martinez
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I think of it as a hang-clean versus reverse curling. These are two totally different exercises. Same weight lifted with varying efficiency (strength vs power), technique, and various motors engaged. Think of CF WOD exercises, as mission requirements. You choose what's best to finish the job.

Additionally, I need to see these folk who can't dhpu for 15 and can kip for 100. I can do more than 15 dhpu's but nowhere close to 100 kipping straight.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 11:25 AM   #37
Shane Skowron
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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1) It is used to mask weakness. In the Marine Corps people who couldn't do 15 strict pullups could do (literally) 100 kipping pullups.
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Additionally, I need to see these folk who can't dhpu for 15 and can kip for 100. I can do more than 15 dhpu's but nowhere close to 100 kipping straight.
Seriously. You said literally so that means you're not joking or exaggerating. And I'm going to call BS on that and say it's not true unless there's a video. In fact I've only heard of one person -- Chris Spealler - who can do 100 kipping pullups in a row.

I can do 28 good deadhang pullups and I have solid kipping technique, and I can assure you 100 kipping is out of my reach.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 11:26 AM   #38
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Again, no. You are conflating mass with weight.

On top of that, you are changing the inertia part of the equation (which works against you in a pullup) and replacing it with momentum (which works for you).

Again, it is less work, done faster.

Back to you.
The momentum is coming from your own body mechanics...you are completely dismissing the effort required to perform the kip itself...this is however not the point IMO and a very peripheral argument. The fact remains kipping is an important skill...

and I think Brock stated it beautifully. The general pull-up prescription in CF is full extension at the bottom, chin over the bar at the top. I've yet to see scientific or anecdotal evidence that people performing kipping pull-ups primarily are hampering their fitness pursuits.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:28 AM   #39
Sean Dunston
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

don't feed the troll.

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Old 07-09-2010, 11:29 AM   #40
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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don't feed the troll.

I was just thinking that after I responded yet AGAIN!
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