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Old 07-08-2010, 07:29 PM   #11
Eric Montgomery
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Max Chianese View Post
I'm not qualified to answer this but I'm pretty sure doing strict pull ups does notactivate your core muscle(abdomen) but kipping does.
I'm the opposite I can do 20 dead hang pull ups but a lot of kipping like when subbing for muscle ups gives me trouble.
Strict pullups do activate your core--I saw a T-Nation (I think) article a while back that rated muscle activation for various ab exercises, and strict pullups came out fairly highly rated, even in comparison to "traditional" ab exercises.
 
Old 07-08-2010, 10:43 PM   #12
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I see the WOD that differentiates the two. My question is not about that WOD, it is directed at why CrossFit trains kips for other-than-training purposes, when as a theory CF seems to be about challenging weaknesses.

I don't believe the argument that kipping is a different exercise (metcon) than pullups (strength). Do 21 strict pullups -- it's a metcon (that happens to take a lot more strength than I have).

Kipping is a pullup altered so that where most people are weak (fully extended) is compensated for by manipulating body momentum. I totally understand this as a training tool (similar to bands). It helps new people, weak people, women in general, train and build upper body strength. What I don't understand is why CF seems to stop there, and never move to the final stage -- "strict pullup" for the "as RX" WODs. Being new to CF, as I stated, maybe I am missing something obvious here.

[along similar and completely opposite lines, "kipping" eg momentum manipulation is verboten with Knees to Elbows, for instance, which makes sense and seems to contradict CF pullup theory]

In any case, I am sure it has been discussed a thousand times. But nothing that showed up in the first several pages I searched directly answered the specific question I had. Thanks to those that replied.
 
Old 07-08-2010, 11:07 PM   #13
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

You take an exercise with a limited set of smallish muscle groups that fatigue quickly, and make it a total body dynamic exercise with speed, coordination, agility, accuracy, and powerful hip and leg utilization. More importantly, you're moving the same load (your bodyweight) the same distance, but with a higher rep frequency, i.e. higher power output for longer durations/reps. Yes, this is a legit reason to do jumping pull-ups also, but you lose a lot of the neuromuscular skill components that a continuous kip requires, and will have a hard time coupling it with other lower body exercises due to fatigue. Also, the dynamic loading on the shoulder and lats at the bottom of a continuous kip, especially butterfly kip, is pretty high and cannot be duplicated by jumping pull-ups.
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Last edited by Mauricio Leal : 07-08-2010 at 11:10 PM.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 01:54 AM   #14
Allan Jackman
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I'm new to CF but I'm a research geek, so here's my take on this.

Kipping pull-ups provide more "work" to someone versus strict pull-ups. Remember, work = force * distance divided by time. Thus, the more reps you do in a shorter amount of time results in increased work output (higher watts and such). The body weight is still the same and the distance hasn't changed when comparing strict versus kip.

There's a video that shows this difference. CF is about maximizing "work".

This is one reason why you see many doing butterfly PUs due to the increase in "work" since it's a fast repetition method.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:09 AM   #15
Ben Moskowitz
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Allan Jackman View Post
Kipping pull-ups provide more "work" to someone versus strict pull-ups.
Just to clarify,
work = force * distance
What you are describing is power. Watts are a unit of power.

Weren't butterflies not allowed at some competitions because it was hard to verify the distance component (i.e. whether or not the chin was over the bar)?

And the results from that T-nation article were crazy, I just wanted to quote them here:

Quote:
Probably the most shocking result of this entire experiment was the level of rectus abdominis activity elicited by a bodyweight chin-up! It beat out any other abdominal exercise, weighted exercises and all, in mean and peak rectus abdominis activity.

Chin-ups are ultimate "anti-extension" exercise for the low back. Some lifters let their lower back arch excessively, which is not only unsafe, but sub-optimal. If they brace their lower back and keep a straight line from their shoulders to knees, the core musculature has to work very hard to prevent the low back from extending.

Another surprise was that using extra weight on chin-ups via a dip belt didn't increase rectus abdominis activity—it lowered it. If you're aiming to get a great core workout via chin ups, I recommend performing slow, controlled repetitions while focusing on keeping the hips and spine perfectly neutral throughout the set.
Link to Bret Contreras article is "sorta" NWFS, it's T-nation so lots of people in skimpy attire.

That middle paragraph is particularly applicable to the kipping pull-up. You don't see floppy mid-sections when actual gymnasts perform dynamic movements (or static ones for that matter).

Last edited by Ben Moskowitz : 07-09-2010 at 03:12 AM. Reason: link
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:07 AM   #16
Eric Montgomery
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post

[along similar and completely opposite lines, "kipping" eg momentum manipulation is verboten with Knees to Elbows, for instance, which makes sense and seems to contradict CF pullup theory]
I've never seen anything about kipping not being allowed for KTE or toes to bar--where have you seen it?
 
Old 07-09-2010, 10:15 AM   #17
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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I've never seen anything about kipping not being allowed for KTE or toes to bar--where have you seen it?
The CrossFit instructional video on Knees to Elbows / variations. It says (paraphrasing here) kipping perhaps could be used for times, but seemed to frown on it (even pointing out that the performer couldn't maintain proper form while kipping) -- and then spent the rest of the video showing bad kip form / stating don't do it.

In any case, the T-Nation article seemed to sum up what I was basing my question on: strict pullups require more strength and ~equal work. "Cheats" are not allowed in other exercises (KtE / BFPU's et cetera) and I'm just not seeing the logic behind kipping pullups as a replacement for strict pullups the way they are used in the WODs. [I certainly see other value in them, especially as someone pointed out, for learning MUs]

When I've had other questions I've seen some very good / logical / scientifically backed responses, but I'm not seeing anything resembling that on this topic. It looks like (to me) all the evidence is that strict pullups require more strength and at least as much work, but people do kips because "that's the way it is." (again, MU training not-withstanding)
 
Old 07-09-2010, 10:17 AM   #18
Aushion Chatman
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post
I am just not seeing what it's function is, other than to mask weakness during timed exercises.

Strict pullups develop strength, will raise your heart-rate, et cetera

Kipping will raise your heart rate, but require much less strength development, and are more stressful on the shoulder joints?

I have trouble doing more than 5-8 strict without a break, but I can knock 21 down with kipping. It feels like a "cheat" to me, like something I'd use in place of band assistance until I get strong enough to do "real" pullups.

Which makes me wonder why kipping seems to be SOP, instead of a tool to get to the final form of the exercise. Am I missing something big here?
I think it's been detailed but here's what I'd say:

1) The kip is a fundamental gymnastic movement and has at its heart, nothing to do with "masking weakness" (though I agree it can be used to mask weakness)

2) If someone has a strength deficit that isn't kipping pull-ups fault...it is the fault of the individual for not spending time working on their weakness

3) The kip has many benefits that I believe mauricio detailed in his post already.

4) Kipping functions as a gateway to shoulder girdle strength and stability to handle more demanding dynamic gymnastic movements such as swings and giants, when taken to the rings, uprises, etc...
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:22 AM   #19
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
I think it's been detailed but here's what I'd say:

1) The kip is a fundamental gymnastic movement and has at its heart, nothing to do with "masking weakness" (though I agree it can be used to mask weakness)

2) If someone has a strength deficit that isn't kipping pull-ups fault...it is the fault of the individual for not spending time working on their weakness

3) The kip has many benefits that I believe mauricio detailed in his post already.

4) Kipping functions as a gateway to shoulder girdle strength and stability to handle more demanding dynamic gymnastic movements such as swings and giants, when taken to the rings, uprises, etc...
1) It is used to mask weakness. In the Marine Corps people who couldn't do 15 strict pullups could do (literally) 100 kipping pullups.

2) If the training program tells everyone that it is OK to do kips instead of strict pullups in their everyday training, it is the programs fault.

3) Strict was shown to have more benefits, as detailed earlier.

4) I believe you. The swinging form / agility / etc needed for MUs and the like make kips a good training tool. My question still stands -- why is it allowed for non-training purposes?
 
Old 07-09-2010, 10:23 AM   #20
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

What are you feelings on push presses?
 
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