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Old 04-05-2010, 09:38 PM   #21
Darren Stovall
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

When I was in afghanistan, I got into one scuffle with an insurgent. I was detaining him and he lunged for my rifle. I stepped back, punched the dude in his face, and knocked him down. My buddy and I subdued him and flexi cuffed him. We win.

In combat, theres no real fighting style that is best. Constant awareness, and having ur buddies with you are the best options.

Im Infantry..and Level II in the army combatives.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:13 AM   #22
Tony Black
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by James Goodin View Post
17 years Infantry. I like the Army Combatives program. Levels 1 and 2 are basic ground skills and you dont get to the stand up game till level 3. As for as outside i would recommend boxing. With all my gear on I could not throw some one or grapple on the ground very well and kicks are hard to do even with plate carriers.

Punch the dude in the face and then your buddy shoots or detains him.
This highlights the point i made earlier - you cant defend yourself carrying full battle rattle until you get to level 3! Not good.

Bit like a traditional martial art emphasising curtesy and bowing and air punching for say 3 years until black belt and THEN supposedly the "real" training will begin. Heaven forbid a student gets attacked in the intervening timespan!

How about teach people to strike EFFECTIVELY (alot of what passes for strike training isnt) - and be a threat to a opponent from day one? This stuff also has the added bonus of being highly effective even in settings without wearing full gear.

How about making it indeed the main focus - with all the fancy kimoras and triangles relegated to support skills? If you have time to learn grappling by all means do so - but not until you have learnt to switch a man off at the lights via brain shake.

Its also potentially faster - in situations where it doesnt pay to hang about.


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Originally Posted by Josh Groves View Post
I guess I should have specified a little more clearly on that I meant the throws. I wouldn't care much for trying a submission in battle- I could see the throw being beneficial though, which could give you enough time to unholster your sidearm or whatever is needed to finish the person off.

You are absolutely correct about the buddy thing though. I wouldn't imagine there are too many situations in which one would actually encounter a hand to hand combat situation, and especially not alone.
I still think even throws will be difficult carrying webbing/body armour and a weapon. Judo and whatnot might enable you to keep your feet, do some standing grappling but what then? Maybe you get some fancy lock! Your still tied up with the guy - what if you buddy needs help?

Your still taking more time then you need to.

Striking still comes out as a logical choice over and above a more complicated and time consuming throw.

Jigoro Kano (inventor of judo) used to say in a "real" situation atemi (ie strike) first BEFORE attempting to throw choke whatever. People are alot more compliant if there halfway unconscious!


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Originally Posted by John Corona View Post
Recommend whatever style involves throwing sand in the guys face and eye gouging. If they emphasize Hanibal Lecter style biting, that would be a plus.
If they emphasis those highly situational methods and with id say dubious or weak effects over and above something which actually WILL stop a actively resisting man then....... there not something id like to trust my life in.

Sure make them part of your ciriculum - bring the students notice to the fact there possiblities. But to rely on "sand" or eye pokes or biting again (<all of which i contend are of dubious effect against a adrenalised male intend on killing you) is a bit like replying on grappling and groundfighting as your primary skillset in selfdefense.

Teach the basics ie effective striking FIRST.
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Last edited by Tony Black : 04-06-2010 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:26 AM   #23
Tony Black
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Sounds like you've been around the block a few times, Tony, but wouldn't Krav Maga--as suggested earlier--or a SPEAR like defense system get the OP the most bang for his buck in the least amount of time? Defensive skill sets built for practicality first, rather than sport first and practicality second, seem like a better choice, given a limited amount of time to train and learn a new skill set.

I'm thinking that the more realistic scenarios, goal of quick disabling strikes and escape, and potential for training with weapons would make Krav, or similar, a better choice for short term training if time or recovery will not support the development of multiple disciplines simultaneously (which I wouldn't think the OP would be able to support).
Some good points there David. But tbh honest from what ive seen of KM i dont like - overly elaborate and not as effective at striking as it could be.

A step above most TMA's! But still not as focused about things as they need to be YMMV.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:38 AM   #24
Tony Black
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Darren Stovall View Post
When I was in afghanistan, I got into one scuffle with an insurgent. I was detaining him and he lunged for my rifle. I stepped back, punched the dude in his face, and knocked him down. My buddy and I subdued him and flexi cuffed him. We win.

In combat, theres no real fighting style that is best.
Id respectfully disagree Darren youve proven my point, striking dazing or sending some1 unconscious. Almost always comes out as either the whole answer or a large part of it.

I would submit a army combative program is falling short if it isnt making you a more efficient and effective striker. And doing so as a priority.

What if that guy had been larger, stronger, high on drugs, or had a buddy etc? You can always do with more effect in these things.


PS good punch! Glad you are safe!



Quote:
Constant awareness, and having ur buddies with you are the best options.

Im Infantry..and Level II in the army combatives.
I would submit you would be safer with a more effective and focused system.
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:49 AM   #25
John Corona
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Tony Black View Post
If they emphasis those highly situational methods and with id say dubious or weak effects over and above something which actually WILL stop a actively resisting man then....... there not something id like to trust my life in.

Sure make them part of your ciriculum - bring the students notice to the fact there possiblities. But to rely on "sand" or eye pokes or biting again (<all of which i contend are of dubious effect against a adrenalised male intend on killing you) is a bit like replying on grappling and groundfighting as your primary skillset in selfdefense.

Teach the basics ie effective striking FIRST.
I forgot to mentioned scratching and clawing too.
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:52 AM   #26
Darren Stovall
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Tony Black View Post
Id respectfully disagree Darren youve proven my point, striking dazing or sending some1 unconscious. Almost always comes out as either the whole answer or a large part of it.

I would submit a army combative program is falling short if it isnt making you a more efficient and effective striker. And doing so as a priority.

What if that guy had been larger, stronger, high on drugs, or had a buddy etc? You can always do with more effect in these things.


PS good punch! Glad you are safe!

I would submit you would be safer with a more effective and focused system.
I can see what your saying. Luckily I have yet to come across an insurgent that was bigger or stronger than I. Not to say that they don't exist, but I just haven't had any contact with one yet. As far as the combatives, Level I and II don't deal with striking. Its focused on ground tactics.

The only real thing I don't like about the combatives program, is that it doesn't teach a person how to fight with all their gear on. I personally don't have much of a problem being agile and maneuverable in my kit. But I couldn't do much damage off of my back with all my gear on. I just don't know how a system could be made to be an effective fighter in your full kit. Unless they drastically redesign the IOTV's/IBA's or come up with something completely new, a person will always be weighed down and slowed down and less flexible, maneuverable, and tire faster with all their gear. Just how it is. I carried on my IOTV, a front mounted chest harness with 4 mags mounted flush, 3 frags, MBITR, 2 more mags on my left and right sides, IFAK, ACH, NODS, and my M4. That's not a very ideal way to fight in a hand to hand situation.

A person is still better off though, with even minimal knowledge of some form of fighting, than a person with none at all.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:50 PM   #27
Matt Payne
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Tony Black View Post
Some good points there David. But tbh honest from what ive seen of KM i dont like - overly elaborate and not as effective at striking as it could be.

A step above most TMA's! But still not as focused about things as they need to be YMMV.
Tony, you obviously have not seen much of KM then ..or seen it practiced much. As far as effective striking , I think that it is always good to work in other TMA to help improve this. Having said that, it is street fighting and I would argue that the striking is more than adequate for that. Could you give specific examples of why you feel the striking is not as effective as it could be?
The exact opposite is true in that it is principle base and relatively easy to learn. Certainly not elaborate. The techniques used....get used against real, adrenalized attackers often. This system is put to the test daily by many Law Enforcement officers, Military etc...
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:47 PM   #28
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Darren Stovall View Post
I can see what your saying. Luckily I have yet to come across an insurgent that was bigger or stronger than I. Not to say that they don't exist, but I just haven't had any contact with one yet. As far as the combatives, Level I and II don't deal with striking. Its focused on ground tactics.

The only real thing I don't like about the combatives program, is that it doesn't teach a person how to fight with all their gear on. I personally don't have much of a problem being agile and maneuverable in my kit. But I couldn't do much damage off of my back with all my gear on. I just don't know how a system could be made to be an effective fighter in your full kit. Unless they drastically redesign the IOTV's/IBA's or come up with something completely new, a person will always be weighed down and slowed down and less flexible, maneuverable, and tire faster with all their gear. Just how it is. I carried on my IOTV, a front mounted chest harness with 4 mags mounted flush, 3 frags, MBITR, 2 more mags on my left and right sides, IFAK, ACH, NODS, and my M4. That's not a very ideal way to fight in a hand to hand situation.

A person is still better off though, with even minimal knowledge of some form of fighting, than a person with none at all.
Darren,

Yeah, I didn't consider prisoner searches. Still, you had ample clubs available.
An M4 barrel speared into the breastbone is a fight stopper and probably elbow pads a Surefire etc. Ample clubs. A punch to the face works well too though doesn't it. Well done.
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Old 04-06-2010, 06:37 PM   #29
Darren Stovall
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

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Originally Posted by Robert D Taylor Jr View Post
Darren,

Yeah, I didn't consider prisoner searches. Still, you had ample clubs available.
An M4 barrel speared into the breastbone is a fight stopper and probably elbow pads a Surefire etc. Ample clubs. A punch to the face works well too though doesn't it. Well done.

Well, I was searching the prisoner and my M4 was slung in one hand while my buddy was pulling security. Hence the reason I didnt use my M4 on him. It was quicker and more efficient to just punch the dude, and create some space between him and I so if necessary my buddy could have put rounds in him.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:31 AM   #30
Shane Lawrence
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Re: Style Suited For Army Infantry?

Wow. Lots of stories to tell...

Back to the OP, They used to teach forms of Taijutsu and kickboxing from the 70s to the early 90s. Then grappling became a big thing and BJJ.
Now, someone who has been doing this for a while will have great taijutsu smoothness and quickness of movement, and the ability to takedown and jointlock a bad guy in a fraction of a second. Those are things you cannot easily pickup. However, the current Krav Maga systems are great to teach you what your senior sergeant and chiefs have been learning for a long time.

There are however some stark realities you need to prepare for.
1. Theres no such thing as a fair fight. It will be 3 on 1 for or against you. You decide whos favor.
2. Did I mention theres no such thing as a fair fight? There are no rules, nothing is offlimits. Its ok to knee somebody in the head while their down, eyegouge, groin kick, nut punch, etc., theres no referee to stop that. Be prepared for that to happen, and have it in your arsenal. Roshambo for beers?
3> Your not going to be in loose fitting clothing stretched out, warmed up, and ready to fight. In the wisdom of Metallica (lol) they recite "My lifestyle determines my death style". I take that to heart as whatever your doing today and everyday is how its going to happen. If that means wearing a 40# ruck, a unit 1 and a M4, so be it.

Good Luck, and God speed our vets. FW,FS.
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