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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:18 AM   #51
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

This is accomplishing nothing. Nobody will be convinced to change their opinion on this matter.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:21 AM   #52
Simon Nainby
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by Gary Maholm View Post
I think this is simple. I have no idea how someone could not comprehend it.

Lets have a rugby match in 30 days.
We'll both take 20 newbs today and begin preparation.
We will assume that both of us are licensed/accredited/respected rugby coaches.

The only difference in our methods is that i ramp them up with 4 times the intensity.

Day 29 i have 2-3 people that are sidelined and you have 20 bodies.

We play. I will defeat you.

Extend this to 60 days...i will beat you...beyond that..it becomes pretty close to "specialization" and you might begin to defeat my team. Which is natural.

And that's the end. If you can't come to grips with that theorycraft then you really haven't spent enough time understanding the crossfit methodology. Lacking those fundamentals is why you are getting so much resistance.
I'd argue you would have far more than 2 to 3 out if you were taking novices through highly intense training sessions before they had any technique grounding and within 20 minutes of the first game being played you would have half a team because none of them know how to tackle or scrummage properly.

This could go round in circles so I'll leave it there.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:22 AM   #53
Steven Matheson
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Maholm View Post
Lets have a rugby match in 30 days.
We'll both take 20 newbs today and begin preparation.
We will assume that both of us are licensed/accredited/respected rugby coaches.

Day 29 i have 2-3 people that are sidelined and you have 20 bodies.

We play. I will defeat you.
Actually, if the match were to be played on Day 30 and you played on Day 29...?

Anyway, this conversation seems to border on the absurd and hypothetical....maybe we can all wait until CF is out of its infancy to cite evidence on its long-term efficacy?
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:26 AM   #54
Simon Nainby
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
So you can teach rugby, CF or any other sport with zero injuries over a long time time frame?
No I have not said that but you can teach novices and have no injuries. This is not theoretical it is what I have seen over the past 6 years and will see again this Sunday morning.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:31 PM   #55
John Praeuner
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by Simon Nainby View Post
No I have not said that but you can teach novices and have no injuries. This is not theoretical it is what I have seen over the past 6 years and will see again this Sunday morning.
Question- If you have truly never had an injury while training/coaching novices, what kind of progress have you seen in their ability to play? As an (ex) American football player it blows my mind that you can go 6 years injury free, and feel comfortable saying future practices will be that way also (no sarcasm, I really am boggled), and yet have progression in a physically rough sport like rugby.
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Old 08-07-2009, 04:11 PM   #56
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by Steven Matheson View Post
Actually, if the match were to be played on Day 30 and you played on Day 29...?

Anyway, this conversation seems to border on the absurd and hypothetical....maybe we can all wait until CF is out of its infancy to cite evidence on its long-term efficacy?
I believe Coach Glassman has been training athletes and developing (it's definitely changed over time) CF for near 30 yrs...CF as sport is definitely in infancy,...but not CF the fitness program, I would think you could determine how safe and effective a program is after 20+ yrs of practice.
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Old 08-07-2009, 04:15 PM   #57
Steven Matheson
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
I believe Coach Glassman has been training athletes and developing (it's definitely changed over time) CF for near 30 yrs...CF as sport is definitely in infancy,...but not CF the fitness program, I would think you could determine how safe and effective a program is after 20+ yrs of practice.

I'm skeptical. Where are these old timers? What a great way to show the world how effective CF is at keeping old timers fit and healthy than to have these people that have been doing CF for 20+ at the games (for example).

I've just never heard of any of these "beta testers" of CF verifying its long-term health producing properties.
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:07 PM   #58
Oliver Gould
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

A lot of the people in Santa Cruz have been doing Crossfit since before the first gym opened, and some of them are pretty old. Mary Conover is a very mobile, functional lady, way beyond what most people can do at her age. But then, she doesn't do mainsite WODs at all...
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:33 PM   #59
Rob Johns
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

Simon,
I've also been playing rugby for nearly 20 years and been involved with coaching novices as well. I am all for progressions and have both learned and used them. After the progressions are done, however, players remain novices at tackling, particularly at game speed. The point has already been made here, as the intensity is ratcheted up, the risk of injury (which may very well only be minor sprains and bruises) naturally goes up.

Your defined group of "novices" appears to fall within that narrow time between when they first strap on their cleats and their first scrimmage or game is played. They will remain novices until long after they have played even their first season and all the progressions in the world will not eliminate the risk of injury when the full speed collisions begin.

Considering the fact that coach Glassman was making a very general point regarding "novices", I think you've just been playing word games Simon, shifting your original meaning to accomodate an increasingly narrow point.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:48 AM   #60
Simon Nainby
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Re: Perfectly Safe isn't perfectly ineffective

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Originally Posted by John Praeuner View Post
Question- If you have truly never had an injury while training/coaching novices, what kind of progress have you seen in their ability to play? As an (ex) American football player it blows my mind that you can go 6 years injury free, and feel comfortable saying future practices will be that way also (no sarcasm, I really am boggled), and yet have progression in a physically rough sport like rugby.
John - We have had lads progress to county, divisional and national level. When I said future practices will be that way I was referring to sessions with novices. Obviously as they progress up the ladder the intensity increases and as I said earlier that is when there is a higher potential for injury. By that stage though they will have safe, effective technique imbued in them and a level of conditioning that is designed to protect them.

Technique plays a big part in all this and when we look at lads coming through to County level the first thing we assess is how well they do the basics. The lads who do well are the ones who have a good understanding of the game and execute the basic skills very well on a consistent basis so those with poor technique will not make it to a level where the intensity is over and above their technical ability.

I cannot see that this would be any different in any training. I do not seriously believe that anyone would really take novices and "ramp them up with 4 times the intensity" - the more I look at that the more I cringe/laugh!


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Originally Posted by Rob Johns View Post
Simon,
I've also been playing rugby for nearly 20 years and been involved with coaching novices as well. I am all for progressions and have both learned and used them. After the progressions are done, however, players remain novices at tackling, particularly at game speed. The point has already been made here, as the intensity is ratcheted up, the risk of injury (which may very well only be minor sprains and bruises) naturally goes up.

Your defined group of "novices" appears to fall within that narrow time between when they first strap on their cleats and their first scrimmage or game is played. They will remain novices until long after they have played even their first season and all the progressions in the world will not eliminate the risk of injury when the full speed collisions begin.

Considering the fact that coach Glassman was making a very general point regarding "novices", I think you've just been playing word games Simon, shifting your original meaning to accomodate an increasingly narrow point.
Rob - I honestly do not intend to play word games and I can see how you have interpreted the statement. I just do not believe that safe is ineffective. Would you expect 1 or 2 players injured when you were teaching novices tackling as per the statement? None of the coaches I spoke to at our County training camp this weekend would.

It is a fair point that novice extends beyond the teaching stage but in games as I wrote above, novices should play at a level that reflects their ability. The safety aspect here is that clearly novice/lower league games are played at a vastly reduced intensity due to their technical and tactical ability. Again for this reason injuries here are very rare in my experience, I appreciate this will vary for others in their experience.

Another point Katherine raised is how you classify an injury. If it prevents you playing then it is an injury - bumps and bruises rarely do that. I do accept that far worse can happen (after all people die falling over putting on their undies) but it is unlikely given the intensity. I say this not hypothetically but based on my experience.

My main point underlying all this regardless of semantics and interpretations is that I believe safe does not have to be ineffective and most good sports and training programs reflect this.
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