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Old 09-07-2011, 05:39 PM   #1
David Meverden
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How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

I'm in the camp that says there is no reason we should be doing butterfly pull-ups except one: competition. If you agree (arguing merits of the butterfly is not my purpose. See other threads if you want to do that) then I ask you: could a different CrossFit pullup standard be created that would still allow people to give it everything theyíve got without risking their joint health as much?

My ideal for a CF competition pullup would have 2 qualities:
1) Easily judged. I submit that strict pull-ups donít meet this standard. How much body movement is too much? For instance, how many strict reps does this kid do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQTxM...eature=related (WFS)? Some would say that almost all were legit. Some would see his bent knees on the first rep and say none, but is being that strict on pull-ups helpful? And what of someone who keeps a rigid body but swings about the shoulders to get a kip? Itís too difficult to judge.

2) An intact CrossFit attitude allowing people to give it everything theyíve got. One thing I like about CF is that there is a movement goal--get from here to there--and often you donít have to hold yourself back in order to exhibit form points. For example, you donít have to pause in a plank and then demonstrate a perfect pushup in a CF Burpee. You get yourself down and up as fast as your body can freakiní move you. This is another reason I donít like strict pull-ups for competition: I have to hold myself back and not move as fast and as powerfully as I know I can.

So, what do you guys think? Could a standard for pull-ups be created that would still exhibit aspects #1 & #2 but be easier on the shoulders? Maybe a different completion marker (Iíve heard chin vertically over the pullup bar suggested. Step in the right direction probably) or a different apparatus (Iíve seen kipping pull-ups on fat tree branches, and itís quite different)?
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:02 PM   #2
Ben Norris
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
I'm in the camp that says there is no reason we should be doing butterfly pull-ups except one: competition. If you agree (arguing merits of the butterfly is not my purpose. See other threads if you want to do that) then I ask you: could a different CrossFit pullup standard be created that would still allow people to give it everything theyíve got without risking their joint health as much?

My ideal for a CF competition pullup would have 2 qualities:
1) Easily judged. I submit that strict pull-ups donít meet this standard. How much body movement is too much? For instance, how many strict reps does this kid do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQTxM...eature=related (WFS)? Some would say that almost all were legit. Some would see his bent knees on the first rep and say none, but is being that strict on pull-ups helpful? And what of someone who keeps a rigid body but swings about the shoulders to get a kip? Itís too difficult to judge.

2) An intact CrossFit attitude allowing people to give it everything theyíve got. One thing I like about CF is that there is a movement goal--get from here to there--and often you donít have to hold yourself back in order to exhibit form points. For example, you donít have to pause in a plank and then demonstrate a perfect pushup in a CF Burpee. You get yourself down and up as fast as your body can freakiní move you. This is another reason I donít like strict pull-ups for competition: I have to hold myself back and not move as fast and as powerfully as I know I can.

So, what do you guys think? Could a standard for pull-ups be created that would still exhibit aspects #1 & #2 but be easier on the shoulders? Maybe a different completion marker (Iíve heard chin vertically over the pullup bar suggested. Step in the right direction probably) or a different apparatus (Iíve seen kipping pull-ups on fat tree branches, and itís quite different)?

Why not just keep with Butterfly pullups? I mean if you have problems doing them because of your joints then dont do them. Simple as that.

If you are like Spealler and have no issue doing 100 then why would he change it and why would Crossfit change it because a few people have weak shoulders?

I am currently in the stage of learning how to do butterfly pullups and cannot wait till i get them because I feel gymnastics kip means you are on the bar for way too long compared to somebody who gets more work done in less time. Which is what CrossFit is all about
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:37 PM   #3
Jay Mulder
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

I absolutely agree David. Although the butterfly pull-up is something the people running the games love, and probably won't change.

Last edited by Jay Mulder : 09-07-2011 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Rambled about the merits of the butterfly pull-up
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:37 PM   #4
Robert Fabsik
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

Does the Chest to Bar standard slow the butterfly down in any way? Or do you feel chest to bar is too hard to measure?
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:11 AM   #5
Nalin Prabhu
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

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Does the Chest to Bar standard slow the butterfly down in any way? Or do you feel chest to bar is too hard to measure?
C2B is definitely easier to judge. And for the people that have the rhythm down, I don't think it slowed them down at all.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:49 AM   #6
David Hare
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
I'm in the camp that says there is no reason we should be doing butterfly pull-ups except one: competition. If you agree (arguing merits of the butterfly is not my purpose. See other threads if you want to do that) then I ask you: could a different CrossFit pullup standard be created that would still allow people to give it everything theyíve got without risking their joint health as much?

My ideal for a CF competition pullup would have 2 qualities:
1) Easily judged. I submit that strict pull-ups donít meet this standard. How much body movement is too much? For instance, how many strict reps does this kid do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQTxM...eature=related (WFS)? Some would say that almost all were legit. Some would see his bent knees on the first rep and say none, but is being that strict on pull-ups helpful? And what of someone who keeps a rigid body but swings about the shoulders to get a kip? Itís too difficult to judge.

2) An intact CrossFit attitude allowing people to give it everything theyíve got. One thing I like about CF is that there is a movement goal--get from here to there--and often you donít have to hold yourself back in order to exhibit form points. For example, you donít have to pause in a plank and then demonstrate a perfect pushup in a CF Burpee. You get yourself down and up as fast as your body can freakiní move you. This is another reason I donít like strict pull-ups for competition: I have to hold myself back and not move as fast and as powerfully as I know I can.

So, what do you guys think? Could a standard for pull-ups be created that would still exhibit aspects #1 & #2 but be easier on the shoulders? Maybe a different completion marker (Iíve heard chin vertically over the pullup bar suggested. Step in the right direction probably) or a different apparatus (Iíve seen kipping pull-ups on fat tree branches, and itís quite different)?
This is how I do all my pull ups. Chin has to be actually over the bar (not higher than, but directly over).

Doing them this way, you lose the glamour factor of saying you did 40+ pullups in a row, but I personally think it works the muscles better.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:26 PM   #7
Adam Dunn
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

I like the chin directly over the bar aspect. Easy to judge (either camera or MK-1 eyeball right at the bar height) and it prevents the butterfly because I think it would be incredibly hard/impossible not to bang your chin on the bar on the way down. It still allows the gymnastic kip which to me incorporates the whole body, "produce as much power as possible" crossfit mentality, and is easier on the shoulders (I don't do butterflies FWIW).

Personally I mostly train either strict chin ups or weighted chin ups but if I'm doing a WOD that requires max pullups in a time frame I'll do some gymnastic kip ones because you can clearly knock them out faster that way.

Good conversation to have...basically asking how can we improve an aspect of crossfit without losing part of what makes it great. I expect conversations like this will be shut down in short order
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:39 PM   #8
Daniel Frankel
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

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Originally Posted by Nalin Prabhu View Post
C2B is definitely easier to judge. And for the people that have the rhythm down, I don't think it slowed them down at all.
Regardless of whether or not the athletes were affected by the standard, it wall eventually have to slow them down, as the distance of the movement is increased. Unless they were able to do a full C2B butterfly pullup at the same speed as a normal butterfly (Greater increase in power during each pullup is obviously required, so it cannot be maintained for as many reps as a standard butterfly, obviously), doing C2B should take a tiny bit longer.

I can't seem to remember, what were the WODs with C2B pullups like in the games? How many reps a round? If it were something like 20, I could understand it taking longer. But 5 or so should take the same amount of time as butterfly for a games athlete, because they should have the capability to maintain an increased power output for such a short time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hare View Post
This is how I do all my pull ups. Chin has to be actually over the bar (not higher than, but directly over).

Doing them this way, you lose the glamour factor of saying you did 40+ pullups in a row, but I personally think it works the muscles better.
That would be an interesting standard for next year. Forces all the athletes to kip.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:59 AM   #9
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

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Originally Posted by Daniel Frankel View Post
I can't seem to remember, what were the WODs with C2B pullups like in the games? How many reps a round? If it were something like 20, I could understand it taking longer.
The first wod had a block of 50 CTB Pull-ups, if I remember correctly.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:15 AM   #10
Adam Kryskow
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Re: How can we switch butterfly for better CF competition pullup standard?

I saw some competition where there is a wall in front of the athlete doing pullups. If they touched the wall they were no repped. Something similiar to that may be helpful but I think this whole thing is a waste of time. Kipping is extremely useful. People who don't like it are either unfamiliar with the exercise(uncoordinated or poor body awareness) or being silly. I have an arthritic shoulder joint. As long as you work your way up and always maintain active shoulders they are incredibly safe and beneficial. The same can be said for absolutely any movement we do. Everything has a risk. We do a ton of large box jumps in my gym because they force the issue of incredible power output while fatigued. Everyone knows if you don't jump big you are going to scrape your shins... This analogy is used all the time for describing kipping pullups, deadlifts, etc. If you don't stay active you will get hurt. So stay active.
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