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Old 03-28-2013, 06:00 AM   #11
Cain Deckhard
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...t-loss-qa.html (WFS)

Also...read what that picture actually says at the end.

"What happens to the Fatty acids? Some are used for energy, some are distributed and stored."

Hahahaha, that's called getting fat.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:50 AM   #12
Sean M Hutchinson
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse View Post
Pretty close to what I was going to say. Additionally, the role of insulin is not to simply store fat, but transport amino acids as well. Fat is more efficiently stored too so if I am going to take my pick of what to over eat, it would be carbs. The comparison is also looking at a piece of meat vs highly refined carbohydrate. Not all carbs are the same and it would be like comparing grass fed steak and saying it is in the same category as bologna because they are both meat. (not that bacon is that quality of a meat either) Insulin level alone have not shown to be representative of weight loss or gain.
So paleo is all B.S.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:10 AM   #13
Paulo Santos
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Sean M Hutchinson View Post
So paleo is all B.S.
Paleo and every other diet out there all work as long as you go on a deficit. It is pretty hard to go over your maintenance on the Paleo Diet because you eat so many veggies instead of grains and other carbs.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:00 AM   #14
Brad Allen Jones
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Sean M Hutchinson View Post
So paleo is all B.S.
Paleo isn't just about weight loss... there a lot of health benefits to eating a paleo or paleo-ish diet.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:16 PM   #15
Larry Bruce
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

From http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459
One of Lyle's friends... (Wfs)

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Now, you may be wondering why refined carbohydrates can be a problem. Many people think it’s due to the rapid spikes in insulin. However, it’s obviously not the insulin, because protein can cause rapid spikes in insulin as well. One problem with refined carbohydrate is a problem of energy density. With refined carbohydrate, it is easier to pack a lot of calories into a small package. Not only that, but foods with high energy density are often not as satiating as foods with low energy density. In fact, when it comes to high-carbohydrate foods, energy density is a strong predictor of a food’s ability to create satiety (i.e., low-energy density foods create more satiety). There are other issues with refined carbohydrate as well that are beyond the scope of this article.
So yes, eating primarily whole food still makes sense, from a fat gain and general health perspective. It's just the rationale for it isn't as described.

That said, if it's catchy and it gets people to eat less crap, and society is healthier the tale of two meals is just a little white lie, like how Santa is used to get kids to behave. It's no worse a lie than the food processors are telling.

Last edited by Larry Bruce : 03-28-2013 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:10 PM   #16
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Sean M Hutchinson View Post
So paleo is all B.S.
I don't recall stating that in my comment. I was suggesting that carbs are not evil and nor are they all created equal. The same with protein and fat. It isn't the macro that is bad, it is the package that delivers it that decides that.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:41 PM   #17
Sean M Hutchinson
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse View Post
I don't recall stating that in my comment. I was suggesting that carbs are not evil and nor are they all created equal. The same with protein and fat. It isn't the macro that is bad, it is the package that delivers it that decides that.
But if you look at the way paleo is prescribed you are literally eating a high protein high fat diet...low carbs... because carbs induce insulin spike which causes fat storage etc... I'm sure many people have heard it explained this way...

I'm not trying to start a debate just a little confused.

Last edited by Sean M Hutchinson : 03-28-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:29 PM   #18
Cain Deckhard
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Sean M Hutchinson View Post
But if you look at the way paleo is prescribed you are literally eating a high protein high fat diet...low carbs... because carbs induce insulin spike which causes fat storage etc... I'm sure many people have heard it explained this way...

I'm not trying to start a debate just a little confused.
What's there to be confused about. Just think about it carefully, do you believe that if you eat 5000 calories of nuts a day that you will not get fat simply because nuts are paleo and without carbs you cannot get fat? If not, then you implicitly admit that it's a question of amounts.

Finally, it doesn't really matter if you eat something and it get stored as fat (any surplus dietary fat gets stored, yet high fat diet is apparently still the way to go). Perhaps somewhere else in the day, you ate less and fat was burned off. It's really your 24 hour caloric balance that matters, not any individual meal.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:34 AM   #19
Sean M Hutchinson
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Cain Deckhard View Post
What's there to be confused about. Just think about it carefully, do you believe that if you eat 5000 calories of nuts a day that you will not get fat simply because nuts are paleo and without carbs you cannot get fat? If not, then you implicitly admit that it's a question of amounts.

Finally, it doesn't really matter if you eat something and it get stored as fat (any surplus dietary fat gets stored, yet high fat diet is apparently still the way to go). Perhaps somewhere else in the day, you ate less and fat was burned off. It's really your 24 hour caloric balance that matters, not any individual meal.
First of all, you don't have to be an smart ***. No, I don't believe eating 5000 calories of anything a day will not get you fat just because it's "paleo".

I'm confused about the fact that everybody says "what causes insulin spike is carbohydrate intake"... then the post above says...

"Insulin will also rise from the high protein/fat meal very close to the level of the bagel. It's theorized that glucagon also rises to prevent a drop in blood sugar. Fat cells will still absorb the TG that are not used for energy (it states that in the bacon side)."

^^^^^-If this is accurate I was unaware that insulin will also rise close to the level of the bagel from high protein/fat meal. I'm not a nutrition expert and don't claim to know everything about nutrition which is why I was confused.

The whole theory behind paleo (at least what I keep hearing over and over) is avoiding high glycemic carbs (like breads from bagels...) to keep insulin from spiking and "storing" fat.

So, that is what I was CONFUSED about...

Personally I've always looked at food as calories in vs. energy expenditure. The more I eat the more weight I gain, the less I eat the less I weigh...I try to keep it simple.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:01 AM   #20
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: A Tale of Two Meals... what's really making you fat.

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Originally Posted by Sean M Hutchinson View Post
But if you look at the way paleo is prescribed you are literally eating a high protein high fat diet...low carbs... because carbs induce insulin spike which causes fat storage etc... I'm sure many people have heard it explained this way...

I'm not trying to start a debate just a little confused.
I don't feel you are being confrontational. Here are my thoughts that are my own only:

Insulin spikes are not the cause of fat storage in an of themselves. If you didn't have insulin you wouldn't be getting protein to your muscles either. Bodybuilders inject insulin as an anabolic agent and yet aren't fighting composition issues with it (not that there isn't more going on). Cases made by Taubes in patients receiving insulin therapy for mental illness and gaining a lot of weight aren't consistent with normal insulin levels that the average person is producing. The reason paleo works is the reason many diets work. You end up in caloric restriction. The amount of protein you eat is very filling. I am not knocking paleo as I think it is very healthy and effective done correctly.

Typical paleo rational:
Americans are fat
Americans eat grain
Grain makes Americans fat

The above is a fallacious argument and not logically founded in fact. The biggest problem the paleo community makes is drawing conclusions without evidence in large studies. When you mention this, there are excuses given instantly why this isn't possible or easy to do. You will notice vegans do the same when you ask for thorough bred vegan athletes to support why it is so great for athletics. It doesn't mean the diet doesn't work, it just doesn't lend credit to it. I again think a whole food approach is valid for health. There is no denying the connection between carbs and performance though.

Some more observations. I think many Americans underestimate how few calories they really need. Because many Americans eat a lot of carbs doesn't mean that is why they are getting fat. It generally in 99% of cases (not a real number) they are simply eating too much. In persons with metabolic disease, caloric restriction isn't the only thing to consider but it is still a primary tool. Refined carbs are bad for several reasons, but getting fat isn't exactly one of them but it can play a part. They are not micronutrient dense, they are generally high in sugar which can affect insulin sensitivity, they are also calorie dense. If someone is snacking on honey buns at the office it is more likely the extra calories and being sedentary are making them fat, not the sugar (though it can play a small part and have greater implications to long term health). If a person is snaking just 50 extra calories a day with no change in activity that is 500 calories extra every 10 days and an extra lb of fat every 70 days and about 5 lbs every year. Exercise won't out pace an enormous number of calories, but it gives greater flexibility to using these little surpluses. If someone eats 4000 calories a day and only needs 2100, walking and the paleo foods aren't going to cut it. You still need to eat less.

Where whole food diets work is making it tough to eat 4000 calories as in the above example. Just remember, thermogenic effect of fat per 100 calories is 1 calorie. Carbohydrates are 26 calories and protein is more yet. This means fat is more efficiently used by our body and stored, not less. Too much fat will in fact make you fat if you are in caloric surplus. It does not magically pass through your body like an magic food stuff that makes you leaner as you eat more and carbs are consumed less. Low carb diets can help you with composition, but long tern I don't think they are a great approach. This is why people started finding ways to smuggle carbs into their diet. Cycling and the such helps to keep glycogen stores up in highly active people. ACSM study reviews show that over long periods low carbohydrate consumption is linked to hindered performance. This isn't health but performance. Most crossfitters want both though. There is no reason why a moderate carbohydrate approach can't be taken to achieve both. You have guys like Froning and Holmberg who eat peanutbutter and jelly as a main staple and they are quite lean. If this chart was correct they would be getting fatter because of insulin. They obviously aren't and won't because they are functioning on a very high level and need to take in calories period. When I was in the service, high calorie intake was mandated for some training. Not surprisingly carbohydrates and protein were many of the things pushed on us and fat wasn't something we seemed to gain much of. Just from 3 weeks of training and adaptation, I gained 10lbs. Almost all of it in the upper body. I was leaner than I had ever been. Not eating carbs would have crushed me because you don't have time in that environment to wait for your body to fool around with turingin fat into glycogen.

Moral of the story is that carbs are needed. People that think carbs are making them fat but it is them eating too much in most cases. If you don't care about performance and like using tools like low carb eating to stay lean, then that is fine. If you care about your performance though, long term studies show that carbohydrates are something you need. You can head over to Mark's daily apple and seem him state the same thing. Your carb intake needs to match your activity levels. Believing bagels make you fat just by eating them though is not correct though. Pavel touches on this factor of health too. He mentions that Russians rarely ate meat and often had pastas and potatoes for food. Yet they were skinny. Americans on the other hand are fat because of these same foods though? I think not. I think it has much more to do with people sitting on the couch and not being honest to themselves. Mindless eating coupled with 1 hour of the day spent active and the other 23 doing nothing still spells fail. Your basal metabolic rate is still the number one burner of most American's calories.
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