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Old 10-16-2009, 11:48 AM   #51
Danni Coffman
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence "Bo" Boland III View Post
All this is, is :stir:

You're going on your own experience (anecdotal evidence of 1), and making conclusions. Sure, GCBC provides tons of "evidence". But so do other studies saying that Fat is bad for you, or Whole grains are the best way to lose weight, or too much protein can be bad.

If it works for you... great! Keep it up.
No, actually I was responding to the person who suggested (not explicitly) that anyone who read GCBC would see that it's true.

I don't disagree with you on the rest -- that was my point though stated sarcastically (obviously too subtly).
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:08 PM   #52
Laura Kurth
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

I think recommending a paleo-esque diet is great for everybody - everybody should be aiming to eat as much unprocessed food as close to source as possible.

But not everybody needs to reduce their carbohydrate intake. Many people feel great eating a moderate carb diet, with a moderate fat intake.

Also when you give up certain foods like grains, carbohydrate - your body downregulates enzyme production to deal with said foods. So you cut them out, reintroduce them, experience gastric discomfort and voila - you have an intolerance! when this might not actually be the case at all. I believe actual food allergy occurs in quite a small % of the population (was it about 3%, I'm not sure) And Celiac disease is actually quite common, being present in about 0.75% of the population.

And also, you know people can be allergic to any kind of food.. yes even PALEO foods!
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:12 PM   #53
Jae Chung
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence "Bo" Boland III View Post
So... how 'bout those Back Squats?


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Originally Posted by John C Corona View Post
It is very clear that you have no interest in debating anyone over this.
Not true. I am VERY interested in debating with people who provide evidence-based arguments for their positions. I am not interested in "debating" people who make dogmatic claims. Nor am I interested in talking with people who AGREE with me, but who don't understand why they agree.

Quote:
To think that you've found a panacea in whatever diet you believe in is just simply ignorant. If someone needs to find out more about Paleo/Zone/Taubes well there is definitely enough info around here for that. It is the contrary argument that there is not enough around here (like vegetarians/vegans for instance). The second someone says there vegetarian, you get "can I ask why", then you find out it's about animals, and something gets posted about "here's a 'humane' way to kill (if that even exists).
The only reason I asked why is because she said she had recently become vegetarian. If she had said that she had been vegetarian for 10 years, I would never have responded in the first place, because there would be little chance that Wendy would be willing to consider not going vegetarian. If she recently became vegetarian, there was a reasonable chance that she decided to make that lifestyle choice for HEALTH reasons. If that were the case, I wanted to make the argument that she might want to reconsider.

As it happened, Wendy indicated that she went vegetarian for animal rights reasons, and I decided to share with her three things. First, that I respect her concern for animal rights, and second, that I think that there are ways of getting humanely raised meat.

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Then legumes/lentils gets mentioned and suddenly we find out that they cause all western diseases.
No, I would argue that legumes and lentils are a small portion of the problem, and that the greatest problem is in refined grains, starches, and sugars. BUT I think that even "whole" grains, legumes, and lentils are still problematic for a substantial portion of the population, if consumed in large enough quantities, and/or if they are not prepared properly by soaking, sprouting, or fermenting.

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I can assure you there are plenty of americans with some kind of disease that have never eaten a legume or lentil in their life.
This is true but is not a very good argument. There are people who have never smoked a cigarette, but who still get lung cancer. The issue is not whether individuals get diseases. It's whether there is a statistical rise or fall in the incidence of a disease a large population given a certain dietary or lifestyle change.

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Oh, then it was definitely the pasta and bread, my grandparents ate everyday, that killed them in their mid 80's.
Again, this is not a very good argument, and reveals a misunderstanding of sample size. There are people who have had bareback sex with multiple partners in San Fransisco and have never gotten HIV. Does that mean bareback sex in SF is safe?

Some people play the lottery and win. Does that mean it's a good idea to play?

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I'm sure there exists some paleoists that have some kind of life threatening disease (or had), just like there are vegetarians with cancer and whatnot.
Again, this is true, but not strictly relevant. See the above two analogies.

The question is not whether Paleo-eaters get cancer, it's HOW MANY of them get cancer compared to people who eat non-Paleo foods.

The question is not whether vegetarians have a lower incidence of cancer than meat-eaters on a Standard American Diet (that much is probably true). The question is, WHAT CAUSES the lower incidence? Is it the saturated fat? Is it that vegetarians are more health-conscious than the general population, and so are more likely to get regular check-ups or avoid sugary foods or get more exercise? (Yes, I know plenty of vegetarians who eat lots of sugar, but ON AVERAGE, perhaps vegetarians consume less sugar than the general population.)

Quote:
I wish there was one diet that could cure all these diseases, but no one has the friggin answer.
Is it so hard to believe that a diet free of refined grains, starches, and sugars--foods that humans have been eating in large quantities for a few hundred years out an evolutionary heritage stretching back 2 million years--could dramatically reduce the incidence of diseases that have also been around in large numbers for a few hundred years?

Yes, hunter-gatherers get cancer. But would you rather have a 1 in 1,000 chance of getting cancer (Paleo), or a 400 in 1,000 chance (Standard American Diet)? (Both numbers are pretty conservative, by the way. The incidence of cancer in some hunter-gatherer societies is closer to 1 in 4,000 or even lower.)

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Also, I've had plenty of success at loosing weight and keeping it off through a vegetarian diet.
Congratulations! I mean that sincerely.

It doesn't mean that everyone can do what you did, and still lose weight.

Quote:
Have you tried going vegetarian Jae? Have you eaten a potato lately, what about bananas? Have you ever eaten a mango, or does your paleo monitor's alarm go off cuz it's not the perfect amount of sugar for ya. Just wondering if you are keeping your mind open?
I have, and I was hungry, tired, and miserable for 25 days, at which point I caved.

I gave up bananas only recently. I love mangoes but don't eat them much, and potatoes are a regular part of my semi-cheat days.

How does this answer whether I'm open-minded? My food choices are not a good indicator of my open-mindedness.

Rather, you should be asking how often I change my mind about something when it becomes clear that I was wrong. And the answer to that, I hope, is that I do it as often as possible.

I used to believe that it was essential to do static stretching pre-workout. I used to believe that you had to do bicep curls to get big. I used to believe that the ideal starting hip position in the deadlift and power clean were identical. I don't believe these things any more.

You should also be asking how often I attack other people's positions based on the quality of their argument--not on their conclusions. And the answer, again, is that I do it often. I will come after you EVEN IF YOU AGREE WITH MY CONCLUSIONS if I believe that your argument sucks.

Quote:
...but I dont wanna debate you on this. sigh, I can't believe I chimed in.
I don't think your arguments were very good--you don't seem to understand sample size--but you gave arguments that I could work with. I enjoy debates like this.

Being accused of taking GCBC as my "bible," on the other hand....
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:21 PM   #54
Jae Chung
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

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Originally Posted by Lawrence "Bo" Boland III View Post
Ha, thanks.

And to Jae... While I agree with most of the beliefs you have, this argument cannot be won. There is evidence (scientific and anecdotal) to support BOTH sides of this one. Can't we just agree to disagree? I've said the same thing to Laura before in a different thread. I know that everyone wants to put their ideas out there. Maybe we need a wiki or something that shows ideas from multiple theories.
Bo, I am all for multiple theories. I just think that some of the "arguments" put forth in support of Laura's theories are not very good arguments.

There are many, many competing ideas in exercise and nutrition. There are good arguments for some of those ideas. As long as there are good arguments, I'm willing to listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danni Coffman View Post
No, actually I was responding to the person who suggested (not explicitly) that anyone who read GCBC would see that it's true.

I don't disagree with you on the rest -- that was my point though stated sarcastically (obviously too subtly).
Danni, I don't think everyone who reads GCBC will agree with Taubes. (I have my own bones to pick with him.) I just think that Laura doesn't know what she's arguing against--some of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Also when you give up certain foods like grains, carbohydrate - your body downregulates enzyme production to deal with said foods. So you cut them out, reintroduce them, experience gastric discomfort and voila - you have an intolerance! when this might not actually be the case at all.
See, this is a good argument. Is that too much to ask?
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:57 PM   #55
Jae Chung
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

oops.

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Originally Posted by Jae Chung View Post
B. hyperinsulinemia and subsequent insulin resistance seem to be the causes of Metabolic Syndrome (hypertriglyceridemia, adipose obesity, hypertension, etc.);
Just because I am a dork, this should be corrected to read:
Quote:
insulin resistance and subsequent hyperinsulinemia
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:29 PM   #56
Eric Neri
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Re: Vegetarian & CF

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Observing the world around me is all I need to see why the Western World is so "unhealthy".
In that case, I suppose we can do away with all that pesky medical research and even those pesky doctors (who needs someone to diagnose you when you can just observe!) and save billions. The health care crisis is solved!

Seriously though, I was asked by my fellow trainer to try to save this thread which had promise to the vegetarians CFers like me of the world and has quickly degraded. I'm going to say this: CF Nutrition cert was really informative - done by someone who was an actual research biochemist (Robb Wolf) who has significant experience in the field. We were challenged to at least get off the gluten for a month. I tried it in fits and starts because, you know what, those grains are crack. After two months of finally making it being gluten then mostly grain free, I had no desire to really eat grains any more; whole, refined or otherwise. My tendonitis which was severe and chronic in my shoulders and arms for almost a year began to slowly fade in addition to a bulged disk problem in my lumbar spine. AND my performance has increased significantly.

Those are my experiences, not my opinions. You know what they say about opinions....

At the end of the day it's best not to turn this into an ideology war. Can we just talk about what works best for vegetarians and what they are doing to better their nutrition?

Last edited by Eric Neri : 10-16-2009 at 07:41 PM.
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