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Old 03-25-2010, 06:52 PM   #71
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

Chris,

I would second Jacob's statement that novices should use novice training. THey don't have weaknesses yet, they are just weak.

Bill stars program and Starting strength ar eth eones commonly thrown around here, but any program where you do the main lifts and increase everytime you go to the gym is a good program for a novice. WHy would you put them on anything more complex.

Once they begin to show signs of a weakness it can be addressed, but until a weakness shows up, you really don't know what it will be.
 
Old 03-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #72
Chris Mason
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
Chris,

I would second Jacob's statement that novices should use novice training. THey don't have weaknesses yet, they are just weak.

Bill stars program and Starting strength ar eth eones commonly thrown around here, but any program where you do the main lifts and increase everytime you go to the gym is a good program for a novice. WHy would you put them on anything more complex.

Once they begin to show signs of a weakness it can be addressed, but until a weakness shows up, you really don't know what it will be.
Wrong.

Personal example:

When I first started squatting my knees would practically touch from a strength imbalance. If I had properly address the issue early on I may have avoided some knee issues I had just 2 years later.

I have SEEN it done with young teens. People can think what they want, but opinion does not a fact make...
 
Old 03-25-2010, 07:42 PM   #73
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

CHris,

was it a strength issue or a form issue? All the people I've trained to squat will let their knees go in if not reminded to keep them out. After about 2 weeks of cues, they do it on their own.
 
Old 03-25-2010, 10:53 PM   #74
Jacob Cloud
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

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Do you realize there was a time not so long ago that a 500 lbs raw squat was the all-time record? Obtaining one is not so easy...

Trust me, I am one of the least genetically gifted guys out there, and it took very little intermediate programming to get my 500+ raw squat/DL. Had I done linear progression properly, better form, and not been injured outside of the weight room resulting in surgery, it would have come even more quickly than the couple years it took.

I have coached several friends whose knees have come in during squatting. Luckily, the adductors respond very well to frequent work, and with the right cues and 3x/wk squatting, they have fixed themselves - every single one of them. Linear progression is a tool that should be used and abused by every person with the mission of putting up big weights. I will stand by that based on opinion AND experience.

To date, I have not used a single box squat and VERY few partial movements (less than 1%), no chains/bands/speed squats/etc. en route to my numbers, and I consider myself completely average, probably even below average. I don't even have a high pain tolerance, natural strength, or "strong joints." Repetition, consistency, and simple linear advancement rule. Ignoring this is a guaranteed waste of a couple years of training.

There comes a point where intermediate and advanced programming is required, yes, but far too many people jump into it quickly when it's not necessary. Westside is flat out advanced training, and I just don't see the need for it until a lifter has really milked their linear progression. And I mean REALLY milked it.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:35 AM   #75
Mike Clauss
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
Chris,

I would second Jacob's statement that novices should use novice training. THey don't have weaknesses yet, they are just weak.

Bill stars program and Starting strength ar eth eones commonly thrown around here, but any program where you do the main lifts and increase everytime you go to the gym is a good program for a novice. WHy would you put them on anything more complex.

Once they begin to show signs of a weakness it can be addressed, but until a weakness shows up, you really don't know what it will be.
If they are starting out on their own then yes building a base with a more basic program is a good start but if they have a gym full of guys who get the Westside principals then I don't see a reason to avoid Westside. Personally I started my strength training using Stephan Korte's 3x3 program with decent results.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 08:26 AM   #76
Chris J Mason
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

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Originally Posted by Jacob Cloud View Post
Trust me, I am one of the least genetically gifted guys out there, and it took very little intermediate programming to get my 500+ raw squat/DL. Had I done linear progression properly, better form, and not been injured outside of the weight room resulting in surgery, it would have come even more quickly than the couple years it took.

I have coached several friends whose knees have come in during squatting. Luckily, the adductors respond very well to frequent work, and with the right cues and 3x/wk squatting, they have fixed themselves - every single one of them. Linear progression is a tool that should be used and abused by every person with the mission of putting up big weights. I will stand by that based on opinion AND experience.

To date, I have not used a single box squat and VERY few partial movements (less than 1%), no chains/bands/speed squats/etc. en route to my numbers, and I consider myself completely average, probably even below average. I don't even have a high pain tolerance, natural strength, or "strong joints." Repetition, consistency, and simple linear advancement rule. Ignoring this is a guaranteed waste of a couple years of training.

There comes a point where intermediate and advanced programming is required, yes, but far too many people jump into it quickly when it's not necessary. Westside is flat out advanced training, and I just don't see the need for it until a lifter has really milked their linear progression. And I mean REALLY milked it.
I would like to see a video of your 500 lbs squat. If it is to parallel and it did not take much time for you to achieve then you are far above average with respect to your ability to build strength for the movement. You can think what you want, but that is a fact. Take a statistically significant pool of individuals who have been squatting for over a year and see how many of them have a true 500 lbs raw squat and my point will be proven.

When you say Westside is advanced, what exactly does that mean to you? How is that a negative?
 
Old 03-26-2010, 08:36 AM   #77
Jacob Cloud
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

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I would like to see a video of your 500 lbs squat. If it is to parallel and it did not take much time for you to achieve then you are far above average with respect to your ability to build strength for the movement. You can think what you want, but that is a fact. Take a statistically significant pool of individuals who have been squatting for over a year and see how many of them have a true 500 lbs raw squat and my point will be proven.

When you say Westside is advanced, what exactly does that mean to you? How is that a negative?
I didn't say everyone DOES squat 500. They don't, because they don't follow the right kind of program. Look at the guys over on 70sbig.com following linear progression - many of them are squatting 3x5, 3x/week well into the mid 400's without stalling. The more gifted guys that Rip coaches get into the low 500's for 3x5. The skinny twigs still manage to get to the 365 range before needing intermediate programming.


My 507 was redlit, not for depth, but for early racking, because I'm an idiot. I confirmed this with the judges afterwards. I also pulled 523 at the end of the day. I've done it in the gym again but no vid. I hope to hit 550/600 by the end of the year in the 220 class. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6llXff4b4 (WFS, fast forward to ~1:40 for my 3rd squat)
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:42 AM   #78
Chris J Mason
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

You know, upon reflection I find it interesting that people are so adamant about their opinions when they have no experience to base them upon. In other words, how many of you have seen a youngster trained with Westside principles right from the get-go? I doubt any of you. I have personally seen it done and with spectacular results. I therefore KNOW it works. Mine is not an opinion, rather a statement of fact.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 09:01 AM   #79
Brian Degenaro
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

How many have actually seen a youngster stick with basic linear progression/smart training? I've seen quite a few legit 500+ squats from a few kids in my HS, college, and in colleges I've visited, kids who played football and kids who didn't, from "amateur" Olympic lifters and powerlifters, and just the regular gym rat who trained smart. The thing they had in common was they squatted and worked hard at getting strong.

Of that bunch, I have to say that 2 of them are genetically gifted: 1 is a very high caliber Junior age Olympic lifter and the other runs 10.14s for the 100m dash, everyone else, their athletic skills are pretty lacking.
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:14 AM   #80
Chris J Mason
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Re: Dude Squatting 765 @ Globo Gym

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Originally Posted by Jacob Cloud View Post
I didn't say everyone DOES squat 500. They don't, because they don't follow the right kind of program. Look at the guys over on 70sbig.com following linear progression - many of them are squatting 3x5, 3x/week well into the mid 400's without stalling. The more gifted guys that Rip coaches get into the low 500's for 3x5. The skinny twigs still manage to get to the 365 range before needing intermediate programming.


My 507 was redlit, not for depth, but for early racking, because I'm an idiot. I confirmed this with the judges afterwards. I also pulled 523 at the end of the day. I've done it in the gym again but no vid. I hope to hit 550/600 by the end of the year in the 220 class. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6llXff4b4 (WFS, fast forward to ~1:40 for my 3rd squat)
Lol, geez, ok now you have proven my point. First, good squats! Next, you are a guy competing in the 275 lbs weight class in that video and raw squatting 507 lbs nice and deep and you think you have 'average' genetics for lower body size and strength??? Lol, how many average guys are 275 ish lbs and not slobs (like you, you are not a slob to be clear)?

I think you need to reconsider your opinion. You are FAR from average. You are a big guy with the heredity to be very big and you respond well to squat training. The fact you have done well with linear progression does not mean that you would not have done better with a Westside template, it just means you have good heredity.
 
 


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