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Old 10-09-2007, 05:08 AM   #71
Barry Cooper
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Re: Real fights videos (discuss)

Jay,

I think if we concede that actually increasing hand to hand combat effectiveness is not the PRIMARY goal, I will agree with you. Increasing overall COMBAT effectiveness can be achieved by increasing levels of controlled aggression and confidence in expressing that aggression. This can be taught through MMA. Moreover, even though MMA allows full force, full speed fighting, it has a relatively low injury rate and, importantly, a lot of soldiers probably really enjoy it. This is a good thing.

And in actual fact, our soldiers, in my understanding, are typically going to carry backup weapons, including sidearms and knives, so pure hand to hand is going to be rare, and one on one just about non-existent. Even if your gun jams for some reason, or you are out, your buddies will probably still be working, and he can cover for you.

For the above reasons, I can see how someone could assess the situation rationally and conclude that MMA training is the best approach to take in improving morale, fitness, and combat effectiveness.

However, this is not to say that better techniques do not exist for unarmed fighting. Obviously, there are many gun and knife disarm techniques out there, and I'm quite sure that while none of them are guaranteed to work, most of them COULD work in some cases, and are better than having no plan at all.

Slashing wounds are rarely fatal. You could accept in advance, for example, that you are willing to accept a slashing wound in exchange for getting control of a knife. Possibly you could do techniques in which you control where you get shot.

I've spent many hours doing knife disarms, and yes it is very hard not to get cut. It's not impossible though, and simply because the instructors have not found any that are perfect does not mean there are no decent ones out there.

I think in discussions of this sort it's important to define the limits of what you are trying to accomplish. From what I can tell, the Army MMA program meets its objectives, but that does not mean that it is superior to other systems with respect to other objectives. It isn't, from what I can tell.
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Old 10-09-2007, 06:29 AM   #72
Jay Hanewinkel
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Re: Real fights videos (discuss)

I can live with that.

In the modern battlefield, H2H situations seem to be quite common, as shown with Matt's AAR from the field (He has over 400), as opposed to combat such as WWII. It's hard to get into the whole thing with out getting into specifics but the work some thing, I guess conceptual stuff, they are developing using side arms with the understanding in the case of, say, a jamming situation in room clearing, getting rushed in a crowd, etc, where getting tackled seems to be the most common situation, being able to use the techniques taught, such as the guard, while focusing 1. on keeping your sidearms, knives, protect from being used against you while on your kit 2. Using the controlling abilities learned from practicing these positions to gain the ability to use your side arm. It's actually very interesting stuff. They've also demonstrated that drawing and using a side arm can be very difficult in the event you are being rushed and attacked/tackled, ie, it is more likely you will have to using H2H skills in these situations. Also with these things they are developing, they blur the distinction between using pure H2H skills and using weapons, which I think is good for those situations. Also army combatives acknowledges that, yes, if you get taken down, you're buddy may come to help you. Which is fine, I know that isn't the situation you should limit self to, because either way, you should know how to control the person to limit harm to yourself and have some idea as to what to do in the event your buddy cannot come to help you.

Last, I'll say that along with the above the system the army uses the logical approach of 'those techniques which you cannot practice at full speed, on a fully resisting opponent, doing everything he can to beat you, are techniques that you will not learn to effectively use in combat.'

That's my take.
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:13 AM   #73
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Re: Real fights videos (discuss)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Hanewinkel View Post
I haven't limited myself from anything. I'm not really that interested in gun and knife disarms. The army combatives guys are and they said they have yet to find any that work. From what I have seen in books and videos, I tend to agree. Like I said, if you have any that you believe work, show me and I'd be happy to have a look.

In the end, for me, that stuff isn't really what I'm primarily training for, self defense stuff would be a distant 3rd or 4th.
If you're interested in it, do the research yourself.
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:48 AM   #74
Jay Hanewinkel
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Re: Real fights videos (discuss)

I have looked into it, in person, on video, and instructionals. So far I haven't seen any that looked very effective. That's why I asked if you had any you thought were particularly good.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:58 PM   #75
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Re: Real fights videos (discuss)

Here is a quote from BrentW a Krav Maga instructor on the kravmaga.com forum. If you want to discuss Krav Maga defences and learn or debate on why it works/doesn't work, check out their forum


"At the Force Training Division we have a ton of thank you letters from military personnel and law enforcement officers that have used not only our handgun and rifle defenses but also stick and knife. To my knowledge I haven't heard of a case where the gun defense failed. Keep in mind that there are a lot of factors and it is very high risk and it requires significant training.
That being said - We have even had call from someone who learned the gun from the front defense by learning it from the videos and he snatched the weapon right out of the assailant's hand."

Last edited by Jason Lopez-Ota : 10-12-2007 at 08:03 PM.
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