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Old 08-10-2009, 02:11 PM   #1
Marcus Herou
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Interval training best practice

Hi.

I've been using interval training more or less during my whole martial arts career but never questioned why the national team coach had a preference for the 70/20 interval scheme.

It is just a few years back that I started to use the Tabata interval which suited me perfectly both fysically and mentally.


Anyway just wanted to ask if someone at this forum had a table of more or less accepted interval schemes which is used either to improve the aerobic, anaerobic or both energy systems.

Perhaps could point me to an article describing this ?

It would as well be interesting if intensity or perhaps km/h (mph) when using rowers, treadmills etc would be described as well.


Cheers

//Marcus Herou
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:41 PM   #2
Steven Low
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Re: Interval training best practice

All intervals by nature except extremely power biased ones are both anaerobic and aerobic.

Like, the max ones you would get that aren't really aerobic is intervals of <20-300m or so with FULL rest between each (~1 min for every 10m).


The distance or period of time that you're doing intervals depends on the way your competition is structured. There's no blanket "accepted" interval ranges.

Tabata method worked fairly well for the speed skaters in particular... but may not be the best for track athletes for example.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:43 AM   #3
Marcus Herou
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Re: Interval training best practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
All intervals by nature except extremely power biased ones are both anaerobic and aerobic.

Like, the max ones you would get that aren't really aerobic is intervals of <20-300m or so with FULL rest between each (~1 min for every 10m).


The distance or period of time that you're doing intervals depends on the way your competition is structured. There's no blanket "accepted" interval ranges.

Tabata method worked fairly well for the speed skaters in particular... but may not be the best for track athletes for example.
Hi are you sure that they are always anaerobic and aerobic ? I mean is there not a limit in time where the anaerobic effort is almost 100% turned into an aerobic effort (if the intensity is moderate) ?

When I for example did the 70/20 on a treadmill set on 20km/h on a national team meetup I remembered that my legs were OK but my lungs hurted as hell when I almost fell of the treadmill after 8 intervals (10 was the threshold so I failed at that time). That gave me the thought that I had too little aerobic capacity not anaerobic.

I as well am interested how one should think about the recovery part of the interval training. I mean I guess it is essential to choose the right recovery timing based on what you want to train of course.

For instance a 100/200m runner might need 5 minutes to recover from a 100% intensity race to be able to be even close to the first interval time in the next round. I think it is something like this that they train intervals.

However is this really interval training ? When allowed to fully recover I feel it becomes something different, like when you practice heavy weightlifting or explosiveness training i.e. wait 3-5 mins to fully recover between sets and use few reps with high load.

I always thought that the idea with interval training was that you only were allowed to rest for a certain time which only allowed your pulse to drop slightly and by doing so trick the body to become able to recover faster and becoming better to perform the workload in question but I am just a novice in these matters.


In the end I think what I asked for is if someone knew some intervals which are used in various sports by heart.

Examples:

Ice Hockey: Think they use 30/30 treadmill intervals.

Soccer ?

MMA: Tabata intervals doing thrusters, burpees, steep treadmill etc.

Short distance runners (100m, 200m, 400m) ?

Mid distance runners 800-3000m ?

Long distance runners +3000m ?

See where I am getting at ?

By using known schemes I do not need to invent my own just slightly modify a few percent here and there.


Cheers

//Marcus
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:28 AM   #4
Steven Low
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Re: Interval training best practice

Quote:
Hi are you sure that they are always anaerobic and aerobic ? I mean is there not a limit in time where the anaerobic effort is almost 100% turned into an aerobic effort (if the intensity is moderate) ?

When I for example did the 70/20 on a treadmill set on 20km/h on a national team meetup I remembered that my legs were OK but my lungs hurted as hell when I almost fell of the treadmill after 8 intervals (10 was the threshold so I failed at that time). That gave me the thought that I had too little aerobic capacity not anaerobic.
Oh. I was talking about max intensity intervals... the ones that produce the most adaptations on your system.

Sub lac threshold intervals are mostly aerobic yes. But I would only utilize them if you're trying to build capacity after you've developed speed/strength for competitive endurance exercise (rowers, runners, etc.)

See this wfs
http://eshlow.blogspot.com/2009/06/w...for-elite.html

Quote:
I as well am interested how one should think about the recovery part of the interval training. I mean I guess it is essential to choose the right recovery timing based on what you want to train of course.

For instance a 100/200m runner might need 5 minutes to recover from a 100% intensity race to be able to be even close to the first interval time in the next round. I think it is something like this that they train intervals.
Yeah, except the rest times are more along the lines of 1 min for every 10m. So 10m per 100m or 20m per 200m for full recovery.

Quote:
However is this really interval training ? When allowed to fully recover I feel it becomes something different, like when you practice heavy weightlifting or explosiveness training i.e. wait 3-5 mins to fully recover between sets and use few reps with high load.

I always thought that the idea with interval training was that you only were allowed to rest for a certain time which only allowed your pulse to drop slightly and by doing so trick the body to become able to recover faster and becoming better to perform the workload in question but I am just a novice in these matters.
Yes, they're intervals. The definition of an "interval" is basically doing distance/time repeats with rest in the middle. If you're doing multiple "sets" of the same distance/time with active recovery or rest in between you're doing an interval.

Full recovery between intervals just means that you're power biasing them more rather than making them more cardiovascular focused.

Quote:
In the end I think what I asked for is if someone knew some intervals which are used in various sports by heart.

Examples:

Ice Hockey: Think they use 30/30 treadmill intervals.

Soccer ?

MMA: Tabata intervals doing thrusters, burpees, steep treadmill etc.

Short distance runners (100m, 200m, 400m) ?

Mid distance runners 800-3000m ?

Long distance runners +3000m ?

See where I am getting at ?

By using known schemes I do not need to invent my own just slightly modify a few percent here and there.
Uh, what's your sport?

I know of some work in each sports, but I don't really want to write out everything when we can just focus in on one.

And it depends on what the focus of the athlete it anyway... power/strength biased athletes will normally be similar with their intervals and rest periods. Same with endurance athletes.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:39 PM   #5
Marcus Herou
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Re: Interval training best practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Oh. I was talking about max intensity intervals... the ones that produce the most adaptations on your system.

Sub lac threshold intervals are mostly aerobic yes. But I would only utilize them if you're trying to build capacity after you've developed speed/strength for competitive endurance exercise (rowers, runners, etc.)

See this wfs
http://eshlow.blogspot.com/2009/06/w...for-elite.html



Yeah, except the rest times are more along the lines of 1 min for every 10m. So 10m per 100m or 20m per 200m for full recovery.



Yes, they're intervals. The definition of an "interval" is basically doing distance/time repeats with rest in the middle. If you're doing multiple "sets" of the same distance/time with active recovery or rest in between you're doing an interval.

Full recovery between intervals just means that you're power biasing them more rather than making them more cardiovascular focused.



Uh, what's your sport?

I know of some work in each sports, but I don't really want to write out everything when we can just focus in on one.

And it depends on what the focus of the athlete it anyway... power/strength biased athletes will normally be similar with their intervals and rest periods. Same with endurance athletes.
Hi again.

Yeah it perhaps is better to focus on one sport instead of keeping the subject so abstract, even though my intention was to keep it on an abstract level so I could learn a little more about howto think when creating an interval scheme which is suited for a particular sport.

Prepare, here it goes... Displaying background...


A few years back I was representing Sweden in Karate Internationally and participated in the World Cup in 2006. Since then a lot happened (kids, career etc) so I switched from Elite to "feel good" kickboxing, thaiboxing, boxing some MMA and so on basically all sorts of 3 minute round based martial arts biased towards standing fight systems like kick boxing since my Karate background gave me a "free ticket" to sparr with the best in Sweden since my quality/performance actually was in par with that. It did not take long until I started compete in kickboxing as well sigh... and here we are, on elite level again but in another arena.

I have never ever been good at running long distances both due to that my mind never have been able to focus on a target that far away and probably that my genetics is more short distance (lots of fibreX ?) biased, for instance have I always been good at 60m (European special distance ?), 100m, 200m, 400m and fairly good at 1km but disastrous in 2km and above.

However have I never failed a fight due to my metabolic condition (ooops sorry I did once due to heavy weight drop 5 kilos in 24 hours). I think it is because I have been very good in recovering and adapt to the opponent. For instance would I normally throw 3-5 combinations in a row (15-30 sec) and then sit back and rest for about 10-15 sec and then speed up again. I think it is due to that I always have been practicing my sport in that way.

Our more or less stupid national team coach thought that 70/20 20km/h on a treadmill was the magical recipe for interval training that we needed for Karate but I always was sceptical (perhaps since I never was able to succeed at those aerobic conditions).

A Karate competition is formed as a Cup where each match is 3 minute long effectively but perhaps 5 minute long due to fouls, knockdowns etc. A small competition have about 32 participants (5 matches) spread on 2-3 hours perhaps and a large competition have perhaps 8 matches spread on 3-5 hours.

However it is quite normal that one need to fight two, three matches in a row with only two minutes of rest between them. Been in those bad planned situations many times and that really could f--k everything up since you always give 100% each match and 2 minutes is way to short to be able to recover.

If one would measure the pulse throughout a Karate match one would see that it would raise quite quickly to 160 and then never drop below that for the duration of the match (if not a knockdown occur). It is normal that it rises occassionally to 180 and often above 170.

Karate is mostly leg work, half-deep dynamic stances where one shift the weight from one foot to the other induced by the quads and calves which is a huge difference to Kick/Thaiboxing where one do not move at all compared to this. The stance is about 75-100% shoulder wide and perhaps 150% shoulder "deep" so the quads are always a little tense and able to react asap either the back leg or the front depending on attack vs escape. My left quad is for instance very strong and fast and my right calf as well. My body is actually biased to stand with the left foot in front due to all training. The stomach

Two examples of Karate on Elite level (finals so they are perhaps a little to tactical to give the full spectrum of what endurance is needed and they use very little kicking due to tactics)

Example1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0u0gFHPoQ&
feature=related You must indicate whether your links are Work and Family Safe (WFS)

Example2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg9Kw...eature=related You must indicate whether your links are Work and Family Safe (WFS)


Question 1:

OK so how would one train to maximize the performance on the base footwork (excluding the kicking and striking parts which need other training) part of a Karate match which consist of about 10-20, 20 sec very intense rounds which is spread even on lets say 5 minutes ? (Hmm smells Tabata when laying it out like this...)
I of course am not a total noob in this particular case since I was on a elite level myself but I never trained scientifically more like "the more the better of everything".


Then back to present time.

Question 2:
How would one train to achieve maximum performance of a kick/thai boxing fight which stretches to 3 rounds each one 3 minutes long with one minute rest between them ?

Boxers run alot but I wonder if that is due to old habits more than modern science. Drilling in different rounds (intervals) alternating round time and recovery time seem more efficient in these specific sports.

Personally I do not believe in that running 5-10km would give me gain in such "short" fights as 3-10 minutes but perhaps I am wrong here, lots of documentation seem to prove me wrong. I always felt that perhaps it would be better to become good at the 100m to 800m distances instead since they represent the fighting length and intensity much better than 10km runs.

I started to practice CrossFit in 2005 since I felt it was a perfect match to Karate at the time but it actually was not since I needed to specialize some... However I have been cherrypicking from the CF toolbox and CF have always given me damn hard WOD's to complete and made me a better athlete in general. I like to compete in the gym basically.

These days I am practicing CF 100% even though not following the main WOD scheme and will compete in CF in time. We are a bunch of former/current elite martial arts freaks which really like CrossFit but they are a few months ahead of me in their competition training so I will skip the Swedish CF Games in 3 weeks but sure will compete in the next one.

Anyway so basically what I am trying to become is a Kickboxing CrossFitter which will compete in both and of course become champion


Sorry that this turned into a full documentation of me and Karate as sport.

Cheers

//Marcus

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Old 08-11-2009, 06:35 PM   #6
Steven Low
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Re: Interval training best practice

Quote:
OK so how would one train to maximize the performance on the base footwork (excluding the kicking and striking parts which need other training) part of a Karate match which consist of about 10-20, 20 sec very intense rounds which is spread even on lets say 5 minutes ? (Hmm smells Tabata when laying it out like this...)
I of course am not a total noob in this particular case since I was on a elite level myself but I never trained scientifically more like "the more the better of everything".
The best way to train for an event is train like your event.

If it's like as you say (with the short intense bursts then relative rest) then tabata which is obviously showing good results with you is a good idea.


Quote:
Question 2:
How would one train to achieve maximum performance of a kick/thai boxing fight which stretches to 3 rounds each one 3 minutes long with one minute rest between them ?

Well, you describe above that even in the 3 rounds it's bursts of activity. So you can structure along those lines.

Or you can structure intervals or metabolic conditioning along the lines of 3 mins on and 1 min off. There's lots of stuff you can do but the most bang for your buck is probably cardiovascularly taxing activity. However, this is if your strength levels are also pretty high (which I don't know). Can do both as well or combinations thereof. Doesn't really matter.


Boxers run alot but I wonder if that is due to old habits more than modern science. Drilling in different rounds (intervals) alternating round time and recovery time seem more efficient in these specific sports.

Personally I do not believe in that running 5-10km would give me gain in such "short" fights as 3-10 minutes but perhaps I am wrong here, lots of documentation seem to prove me wrong. I always felt that perhaps it would be better to become good at the 100m to 800m distances instead since they represent the fighting length and intensity much better than 10km runs.

I agree... it's old habits that aren't necessarily the most effective.

Being able to sprint fast is indicative of a strong and explosive lower body which you need. The longest you'd probably ever need is like 1200m since you're not going to be going over 3 or so minutes.


I started to practice CrossFit in 2005 since I felt it was a perfect match to Karate at the time but it actually was not since I needed to specialize some... However I have been cherrypicking from the CF toolbox and CF have always given me damn hard WOD's to complete and made me a better athlete in general. I like to compete in the gym basically.

These days I am practicing CF 100% even though not following the main WOD scheme and will compete in CF in time. We are a bunch of former/current elite martial arts freaks which really like CrossFit but they are a few months ahead of me in their competition training so I will skip the Swedish CF Games in 3 weeks but sure will compete in the next one.

Anyway so basically what I am trying to become is a Kickboxing CrossFitter which will compete in both and of course become champion

Yep, do what works for you and your sport. Pull anything from anywhere to make it happen...
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