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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-25-2009, 09:55 AM   #51
Nathan Kulas
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

I'll certainly keep that in mind - train from both ends of the spectrum is my philosophy. Sprints get you speed and 5-10K gets you endurance. Both are required to be successful in the middle - though 400 and 800m runs are also essential.

I also intend to scale up exercises to heavier weights - which will be slower, but better in terms of strength conditioning. This would be my preferred methodology over SS or another strength conditioning program, as my strength requirements don't include squatting 500x5, or bench pressing 350 once. Combining that with scaled workouts can't hurt - the only workout I have ever scaled was Linda - scaled to 1x BW BP (Rx'd), 1x BW DL, ~50% BW Clean. This was one of my first WODs, done at an affiliate on the day I learned how to DL and Clean after about 45 minutes of skill work. That was 4 months ago - about 2.5 weeks after starting CF. A week later (exactly 4 months ago), I did my first Cindy, completing 18 rounds. In 4 months following the WOD - I'm only up 20 rds + the pull-ups for rd 21; but I feel I could do Linda as Rx'd. I've made better strength gains than metcon gains.
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:13 AM   #52
Alex Europa
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Blair Robert Lowe View Post
Mikko did not follow mainpage solely as he was doing A LOT each day. Khalipa was going to another CF in 08 but I don't think we knew what he was doing then.
I agree that it wasn't solely, but there's something to be said for the fact that he did follow the mainpage strictly for 2 years and even now apparently does every WOD posted on .com, albeit not necessarily in the right order, along with additional running and ME work and his physically demanding day job.

As for Khalipa, I have no idea how he trained for the '09 Games, but I do recall him saying (on CrossFit Radio perhaps...?) that he followed the mainpage in preparation of the '08 Games.

I do think that my previous post sounded too cut and dry with regard to how things really are. I don't think that following only the mainpage would completely prepare someone to handle the volume and variety of modalities of the Games (especially 8 WODs in 2 days). But I do think that the mainpage supplemented with additional athlete-specific work has been proven to be an extremely effective method of preparation for the CrossFit Games over the past 3 years.

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Old 12-25-2009, 11:53 AM   #53
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
I do think that my previous post sounded too cut and dry with regard to how things really are. I don't think that following only the mainpage would completely prepare someone to handle the volume and variety of modalities of the Games (especially 8 WODs in 2 days). But I do think that the mainpage supplemented with additional athlete-specific work has been proven to be an extremely effective method of preparation for the CrossFit Games over the past 3 years.
I thought the consensus of the board was the opposite, actually. Most Games competitors seem to have significant athletic experience outside of Crossfit, and to do significant additional work beyond the mainpage. And that seems to be becoming more true as the Games become more competitive.

Katherine
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:26 PM   #54
Ben Moskowitz
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
I thought the consensus of the board was the opposite, actually. Most Games competitors seem to have significant athletic experience outside of Crossfit, and to do significant additional work beyond the mainpage. And that seems to be becoming more true as the Games become more competitive.

Katherine
That's what people say, but several of the interviewees on the Journal and/or mainsite said they follow .com WODs. I'd be interested in a breakdown of the facts rather a consensus one way or the other.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:05 PM   #55
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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and highly technical movements like all the gymnastics
what highly technical movements are they doing in CF? An inverted burpee aka floor/neck kip jump to HS?

HS walking? He/SPU against the wall. L-sits? headstands? Please.

Don't say MU. A front lever? Skin the cats? Back lever? There are people who play with Crosses. Quite a few CFers play with a ring kip (inverted pike/basket hang to support) but I haven't seen any that are decent (yes, mine suck)

a butterfly kipping pullup? a hollow>arch pullup (we teach hollow>arch to 6yo and L1 beginner kids).

a standing back flip is highly technical. you jump up and pull your *** over your head and land. many other athletes of other sports figure out how to do them without any instruction (watch boxing, football, wrestling)

Some affiliates may have a pommel horse or parallel bars but are not working anything technical besides basic swings. Well, besides CrossFitMarin. There are some other gyms that employ parkour. Maybe 2 or 3.
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Old 12-26-2009, 01:18 PM   #56
Scott Kustes
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Michael Peachey View Post
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but an almost plausible reason is that weight lifting / olympic lifting on its own does significantly contribute to an increase in sprint speed in distances of 10-40m (ie - power lifters in previous years, before sprinters introduced this type of training into their regime, beating them at their own game in the initial phases of races)
This oft-quoted study never happened and no one can actually find proof of this statement. It would be great if people would stop quoting it. Do you really think someone that doesn't train for sprinting was beating even a slow (by today's standards) 10.3 100m runner (1930 Olympics results) to 10-40m?
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:46 PM   #57
Josh Knoechel
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Blaire, yes, I would consider several of the movements highly technical, at least for me. Certainly there are more technical gymnastic movements but I would consider muscle-ups and HSPUs technical - I hurt myself trying to learn them on my own and took a long time to recover. The Olympic lifts (when I was quoted I was truncated) and the power lifts are technical and dangerous as well.

Nonetheless, my point was to compare sprinting to more complex movements we do to highlight the fact that sprints are easy to do without coaching and therefore easy to reap benefits from. Trying to figure it out myself from videos, virtual coaching, books, and friends who were trying to learn as well, it took me a year to learn the squat and deadlift well enough and safe enough to start making substantial progress in them. It took me a couple of months doing the same to learn the muscle-up and even the kipping pull-up.
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:06 PM   #58
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Any of the kipping techniques are far more technical than a MU. The only thing technical about the MU is maintaining the falsegrip and being patient enough to wait on the push until you've pulled enough.

The olympic lifts are pretty more technical than the standard CF gymnastics. Inversion can be tricky for adults not used to it if they never got inverted or it's been a long time.

It sounds like you tried to figure out CF gymnastics without a clue. That doesn't work well for any of the OL or BB lifts, either.

As for sprinting, it's not a good idea to teach out of shape or weak newbies how to sprint without some physical preparation. I can't imagine trying to teach some weak, overweight noob how to sprint during day or week 1. Not unless I wanted to be reckless.
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:34 PM   #59
Nathan Kulas
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

http://journal.crossfit.com/2007/05/...t-train-by.tpl (WFS)

Why you should sprint train, by Tony Leyland.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:49 PM   #60
Tyler Hass
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

I've talked to Coach about this before and his reasoning for not including true sprints in the WOD is that CrossFit already brackets sprinting by including Olympic lifts and 400m runs. He did mention the performance of high level O-lifters in short sprints, although I've never seen any verification of this (as Scott mentioned). There was an often cited study done at the Mexico City Olympics, where top lifters competed against top sprinters and beat them in short sprints. But quite a few people did some digging on this and no one found anything. Some of the citations said it took place in the wrong year or at a different Olympics. So, I have no idea if it ever happened or not. I think it's plausible that an Olympic lifter would have very good short sprint times, but I'm not so sure about world class.

I think another reason is that short sprints are difficult within the context of a MetCon workout. If you go 100% on a 400m sprint, then you're killing yourself for whatever comes next. At best, people do a fast jog. Programmed rest intervals are absolutely necessary if anyone hopes to keep the intensity up to sprint level.

I do think more sprinting should be done in CrossFit. It's a vital skill for survival and one of the most primitive functions of the human body. If it's too technical, then people better get started right away. Nearly everyone has sprinted at some point in their lives, so it comes naturally. The most technical part of sprinting is the start, especially off blocks. But sprints from a standing start remove that impediment.

Sprinting is a distinctly different movement pattern from jogging, so the carryover from 400m runs is going to be mostly physical adaptions, not neurological (skill-based) adaptations. It is also a great exercise in its own right for developing speed, power, flexibility, timing, balance, coordination, etc. I would say it covers 8 of the 10 elements of fitness pretty well.

And looking at it from the "chink in the armor" perspective, we can take a look at the posted results from the 10x100m workouts that had been done in the past. It looks like quite a few people came out of it with hamstring injuries. I think part of this was some confusion over how to do the WOD. There was no instruction on warm-up or rest periods. But it's also probably a result of it being an untrained movement and lacking that type of dynamic flexibility in the hamstrings.

Tyler
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