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Old 10-08-2009, 08:54 AM   #81
John C. Brown
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

Shane,

You bring up a lot of good points. This is sort of what I would call the difference between training for CrossFit and training for fitness. Now, that being said, would his fitness improve by our standards by training this way? Yeah, that seems likely, but remember this: if we scare off clients (especially one's with a public voice like a reporter/ journalist) by trying to show them the tougher side of CF without showing the virtuosity side of training, then we stand to lose much more than just that client, (and more importantly) we lose the opportunity for that person to attain a real fitness by our definition.

In all fairness, this is just what he reported, we have no idea what else might have been programed. I know that in the minds of my clients, when we do skill work before the "programmed" wod, they probably just see it as a refresher on the movements and don't really include it in the work out. I don't really care how they see it, so long as they get practice doing significantly more complex movements than the seated cable row... Good stuff though.
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:42 AM   #82
John Devine
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I thought the blog post was petty, bitter and cowardly.

How many people walked through his doors because of CF? My guess is that he benefited far more from CF that he would have without being an affiliate. So now he feels that the 'brand' is so tainted he's better off without it? Fine. Totally his call but to say CrossFit = Horse@$**t is so beyond the pale, any hope for being taken seriously or even sympathetically is lost with me.

Coach Glassman could have gathered a bunch of investors and taken a franchise approach for the growth for CF. There would probably be a few hundred affiliates today and they would have paid a helluva lot more money for the right to put CrossFit on their gym. Instead, he put together some basic requirements and guidelines and allowed the growth of this movement to be explosive - and still not keeping up with the demand. I would argue thousands of CF athletes, trainers and affiliates are better off for that decision.

The downside of such growth is the bell curve analogy. Some boxes will suck, some will be excellent, most will be somewhere in between. And without a franchise type of relationship, CFHQ has very little control over where a certain gym will fall. However, I do think with things like the Level 2's and other specialty certifications, and the CFJ, CFHQ is making strides to move that curve to the right as much as possible.

I think (and hope) Alec Hanson's attitude is prevalent among affiliates. It's interesting to note that Alec's box is within walking distance of John Wellborn's CFFB box (CF Balboa), Brian McKenzie's CFE gym (CF Newport Beach) and another affiliate (South Coast CF). Alec is doing great so I guess those others must all suck.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:24 AM   #83
Joey Powell
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

GreySkull:

Wants to keep doing CrossFit®, essentially as they knew it. Wants to throw the name overboard because it has changed in their brains. Now they get to act like they have an original idea compared to other affiliates in their area, even though they essentially do Crossfit® as well.

Nothing original here. Just different excuse to go it alone and use the ol' "we don't do Crossfit® because Crossfit® is kinda weak, but we do our own thing which looks like CrossFit® but a slightly different twist I can't quite explain without confusing myself.

Oh, and lets not forget about the "it isn't counter-culture enough because I like my version of skulls and flames better"

So now it is 'Elite' Strength and Conditioning instead of 'Elite' Fitness

Wow that is creative.

Remember any of these-

-Gym Jones
-Some affiliate in Louisiana that wanted to be Gym Jones
-Forgefit

Same garbage, from people who can't stand that they are unoriginal and not unique enough under the Crossfit® banner as when they originally signed-up.

However, they essentially do/did the same training. Remarkably they all do the same training (constantly varied, funtional movements, done at high-intensity) and basically with the same Crossfit® gym set-up and mindset. Just a different spin. Sounds like the current affiliate world doesn't it?

So really this is about hurt feelings. Not effectiveness. Not associations. Not differences of training opinion.

Boo-Hoo
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:43 AM   #84
Jay Adams
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I'm going to put my $.02 in as a consumer of CrossFit. I train with CF regularly at the school gym and on and off at an affiliate. I love CF and have been lucky enough to work out at about 7 affiliates. All were very different, and I found some more to my liking than not. That being said, I did not find any that I thought were "not good". If you are not doing main page WODs, you are programming for your population. If this is the case, if someone comes in who is not from your population they could very easily get a work out that isn't really "their thing". When discussing this workout on a blog, message board or at their home affiliate this experience could come of as something other than good. If you are at a small box and doing your affiliates WOD, you could travel and find an affiliate with many newer people, or many more experience Crossfitters than you are used to. So walking into a modified Filthy Fifty you could think "what a bunch of pussies, doing a "dirty thirty" or "terrible twenty" when the reality is that these people have been doing CF for less than a month. The programming isn't bad; it is just not what you are accustomed to. Walking into a box where they are doing breathing ladders or ME Snatch where it seems everyone is tossing up insane weights you could think "wow...beasts!" and view that as a box with better programming. It might simply be that this is a group with much more experience in lifting and this is where they are in their training. Many boxes are modifying programming with CFFB and CFSB ect. Is this "bad" programming? Honestly I think the average trainee isn't really noticing all the nuances of the coaching. I know that when I started all I knew was it was hard and whether or not I felt that I had the coaches attention or not. You grow as an athlete and come to recognize better coaching as you progress. That being said I have had mediocre experiences at boxes that have been around for a while and have L2 coaches and I have had great experiences at small globo gym affiliates who have little experience. I think if the coach has a passion and sincere desire to do a good job, they likely will. I have always had issue with affiliates programming in general. If the main page is put out by Coach, why wouldn't everyone just do that? I think this discussion has hurt CF more than help it. Coach talks in the video about bad training good results. I think the same video talked about older affiliates want to take away the path they took to success for newer affiliates. Look back through archives and you can see that CF went through changes and growth and it is reflected in the posted WODs. I think it is hard to judge an affiliate, or a coach as good or bad based on something you hear, or read. If you haven’t been there to experience the coaching you have no basis to make judgments. Even looking at blogs. I know affiliates that have several WOD and post only one. This topic is beat to death and I am no better for getting in on it.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:51 AM   #85
Richard West
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I know this is a little behind, but I missed it in the recombining mess of the repeated posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
CrossFit is not in the business of making people better at CrossFit, the program itself defines fitness (something which no one else has done in a more logical way, go look for yourself) and then outlines measures to achieve that fitness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
As to the Games, they are open invitation, if Olympic and Amateur athletes want to compete, they can. However, I would argue that due to the specialization required by their sport that they may not do as well as you think.
I think it's amazing that people really believe this. CrossFit is less specialized than many athletic endeavors, but it is not a test of pure fitness. The format of most CrossFit WODs as well as many of the specific movements are unique to CrossFit, and make it as specialized as other mainstream competitions. If you disagree, look at the non-CrossFitting Swedes at the games who did their first muscleups that day (a very technical movement that very few non-CrossFitter, non-specialists would have experience with). That set both of them back in the final workout because all of the CrossFitters had extensive experience and training with this movement.

As to the article, it brings up good points but is unfortunately written like a thirteen year old commenting on a youtube video. It is very interesting to see the responses of affiliate owners that range between thoughtful disagreements and kneejerk, immature, macho nonsense to match the original article.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:53 AM   #86
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

"If the main page is put out by Coach, why wouldn't everyone just do that"

Because not everyone has the same goals.
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Old 10-08-2009, 10:53 AM   #87
Sean Dunston
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
GreySkull:

Wants to keep doing CrossFit®, essentially as they knew it. Wants to throw the name overboard because it has changed in their brains. Now they get to act like they have an original idea compared to other affiliates in their area, even though they essentially do Crossfit® as well.

Nothing original here. Just different excuse to go it alone and use the ol' "we don't do Crossfit® because Crossfit® is kinda weak, but we do our own thing which looks like CrossFit® but a slightly different twist I can't quite explain without confusing myself.

Oh, and lets not forget about the "it isn't counter-culture enough because I like my version of skulls and flames better"

So now it is 'Elite' Strength and Conditioning instead of 'Elite' Fitness

Wow that is creative.

Remember any of these-

-Gym Jones
-Some affiliate in Louisiana that wanted to be Gym Jones
-Forgefit

Same garbage, from people who can't stand that they are unoriginal and not unique enough under the Crossfit® banner as when they originally signed-up.

However, they essentially do/did the same training. Remarkably they all do the same training (constantly varied, funtional movements, done at high-intensity) and basically with the same Crossfit® gym set-up and mindset. Just a different spin. Sounds like the current affiliate world doesn't it?

So really this is about hurt feelings. Not effectiveness. Not associations. Not differences of training opinion.

Boo-Hoo
Agreed.
Yep - that Louisiana affiliate was the one that came to mind immediately when I read Greyskull's post... except that the guy from SLO (or was it SLA?) posted his renunciation here on the message board instead of on his own blog.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:47 PM   #88
David Meverden
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

Andy Petranek: Thanks for taking the time to write that reply both here and there. You are a class act, man!

Alec Hanson: Heck yeah, man!

John Devine: Right on.

Joey Powell: I agree, man. Your comments also remind me of how JP rips into over the top machismo of people at certs despite the rediculous amounts of machismo dripping from his website (invoking the apocalpse, death, gladiators, and skulls). It isn't fighting to the death with a trained warrior in melee combat or trying to kill a crazed 1000 lb beast with a spear. It's fitness in a gym, and the machismo is just as over the top with a 190# shoulder press as it is with a 140# shoulder press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard West View Post
The format of most CrossFit WODs as well as many of the specific movements are unique to CrossFit, and make it as specialized as other mainstream competitions. If you disagree, look at the non-CrossFitting Swedes at the games
I actually think the Swedes are evidence for the relative non-specificity of the workouts. Despite having no experience with several of the movements they surpassed all but a few of the athletes in the competition, making it through the qualifiers and ending up in the highest echlon of CrossFit performers. They won't get first at our competition without knowing our movements, but they got damn high just because they were incredibly fit.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:05 PM   #89
Dimitri Dziabenko
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I read the article. It had some good points:

- Low standards of Level 1 certs.
- Dilution of excellence. Notice, that doesn't mean there aren't excellent people (Games 09), but if you watch some of the affiliate videos of some middle-aged (overweight) women doing cleans with horrible form, your pride of Crossfit instruction takes a nice hit, no argument.
- One-size-fits-all approach, that disguises an affiliate's programming inability.

At the same time, a simple "I want to take my business in a different direction" like Rip did, would have been more graceful. One must remember though that he's a fitness coach, not a politician or communication's specialist. Greg G. says things that are offensive to other programs all the time, so I think we should be used to the rhetoric by now.
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:19 PM   #90
Oliver Gould
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

Quote:
Wants to keep doing CrossFit®, essentially as they knew it. Wants to throw the name overboard because it has changed in their brains. Now they get to act like they have an original idea compared to other affiliates in their area, even though they essentially do Crossfit® as well.

Nothing original here. Just different excuse to go it alone and use the ol' "we don't do Crossfit® because Crossfit® is kinda weak, but we do our own thing which looks like CrossFit® but a slightly different twist I can't quite explain without confusing myself.

Oh, and lets not forget about the "it isn't counter-culture enough because I like my version of skulls and flames better"

So now it is 'Elite' Strength and Conditioning instead of 'Elite' Fitness

Wow that is creative.

Remember any of these-

-Gym Jones
-Some affiliate in Louisiana that wanted to be Gym Jones
-Forgefit

Same garbage, from people who can't stand that they are unoriginal and not unique enough under the Crossfit® banner as when they originally signed-up.

However, they essentially do/did the same training. Remarkably they all do the same training (constantly varied, funtional movements, done at high-intensity) and basically with the same Crossfit® gym set-up and mindset. Just a different spin. Sounds like the current affiliate world doesn't it?

So really this is about hurt feelings. Not effectiveness. Not associations. Not differences of training opinion.

Boo-Hoo
This is completely wrong. I'm sure you didn't read the Greyskull blog while the owner was an affiliate, but if you had you would have seen something very different from the programming at other affiliates. Gym-Jones, likewise, is different enough from Crossfit that CFHQ financed a CF trainer to go to their certification and report on his experiences with the Gym Jones method. Crossfit didn't invent powerlifting, OLY or HIIT, and you can't accuse everyone else who does that stuff of being a rip-off.
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