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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 02-07-2004, 02:49 PM   #21
Lynne Pitts
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Hi Tyler,
Please elaborate on "efficient use of energy at the expense of power generation" and why being efficient is bad?

What kind of article would you be interested in from a broken-down old powerlifter-turned crossfit wannabe? ;^)
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Old 02-07-2004, 03:05 PM   #22
Tyler Hass
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Lynne,
What I meant by that is that kettlebell lifters strive to use the least amount of power possible in order to get the kettlebell overhead. To do this, they use a relaxed "lazy" style. Any extra power generated is wasted energy and as a result, more fatique and fewer reps. In Olympic lifting, it is all about generating the maximum amount of power possible. OL form is efficient because it allows you to lift the most amount of weight for a given level of power. For example, a skilled Oly lifter can lift more weight overhead than a strong powerlifter with poor OL technique. Even if their power output was the same, the Oly lifter would put up more weight because of a more efficient groove, better use of leverage, economy of motion, timing, etc.
Being efficient is not bad, per se, but it leads to less of a workout in the CrossFit framework. And I don't think Greg (correct me if I'm wrong) would dig the kettlebell-sport style of lifting because it is ultimately less powerful. The style that Pavel teaches is sort of a blend of power-efficiency and energy-efficiency and it seems more appropriate to CrossFit style workouts. It is also safer because there is less relaxation. If you try to be relaxed before you are comfortable with KB's, you will probably get hurt. It is an advanced technique.

Tyler
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Old 02-07-2004, 03:39 PM   #23
Lynne Pitts
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Tyler,
Thanks - that makes sense!
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Old 02-08-2004, 04:09 AM   #24
Brian Hand
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Stephen, don't take this the wrong way, but do you mean load the hip flexors or extensors?

Either way, I still disagree with you about low back soreness. Sure, there could be a form problem. It could just be weak erectors getting accustomed to a new type of work. It could also be hamstrings that are tight in the positions the movement involves. Tight hamstrings work against the lower back muscles in these movements; the tightness of the hamstrings wants to round the spine forward, and the erectors have to work extra hard to stabilize the spine.

IAP is another factor in spine stabilization, but it doesn't "cancel out" the lower back. The tension in the abdominals works in tandem with tension in the erectors to create a kind of guy wire effect.

Tight hamstrings are a very common problem, and put you at risk of injury. Even if your static flexibiliity is good (e.g., sit and reach test) your dynamic flexibility may be lacking.

When "giving advice to folks we don't know personally over the Internet" we aren't doing them a favor by jumping to conclusions - tight hams, bad form, weak erectors, whatever.

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Old 02-08-2004, 04:53 AM   #25
bill fox
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Tyler

Your point is exactly correct re: power generation v. power conservation.

When I switched to the 32k bell after doing 55/55 with 24, i had to start all over, snapping the hip, swinging the off arm etc...I had gotten out of some of the power generation habits.

My form doing doubles with the 40k is totally different then doing 10 minutes straight with the 24. Good to do both.

OT-Maxwell taught me the muscle up the other night, did it with sort of a jumping start 3x. Great move.

Bill
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Old 02-08-2004, 08:16 PM   #26
Stephen Troy
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Brian,

Yep, I mean flexors; you are pulling yourself actively back, as if squatting. I said lower back soreness is "usually an indicator of form problem." Not always. Poor flexibility in the hamstrings or mobility in the hips could also be the problem, absolutely right.

I don't jump to conclusions, but I do make generalizations, which are designed for describing large groups of people. Generally, 90%+ of the time, lower back soreness on swings or snatches is representative of a form problem. Some people who may or may not fit in that <10% group can take issue with that opinion, and that's fine with me.
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Old 02-09-2004, 12:00 AM   #27
Tyler Hass
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Bill,
I agree. And a barbell clean and jerk has a very different look than a competition KB clean and jerk. The way Pavel teaches is sort of an amalgamation of both. Almost like an Olympic-style jerk, barely modified to accomodate the center of gravity of the KB. The KB competition one is almost entirely about the lifter getting around the bell (at least by my interpretation), rather than powering the bell.

You will like the muscle-ups. I have no doubt. It's a great exercise. Say hi to Steve for me.

Tyler
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Old 02-09-2004, 06:37 AM   #28
Barry Cooper
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Two movements I haven't seen referred to that I used to do a lot of are the 1 handed barbell snatch, and 1 handed barbell clean and jerk. Both of the those were part of the Olympic Weightlifting competition until about 1920-1925. Obviously, that was pre bumper plate, so you've got to lower the weight reasonably gently. I used to do negatives all the time with one hand up to about 110 pounds, just like that gal did on that website(above 110-and my 1H BB C&J PR is 145--I would pop the bar up, get my other hand on it so I was holding like a 2 hand lift, and bounce it off my legs).

Lowering it one handed works your grip, but obviously you can't swing it between your legs. I think if increasing the weight is the goal, you need to do straight negatives, and work towards singles. If you do a lot of them you get good at it. If consecutive reps are the goal, it may well be the case that a swing between the legs is appropriate and efficient.

In any event, I do dumbell snatches like I do barbell snatches, and kettlebell snatches completely differently.

That's my two cents.
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